Fatih Özdemir: Ich hatte 4 Millionen Schulden. Heute fahre ich Ferrari.

Two years ago you were in debt . 4 million of your debts. How did you get in there? The tax advisor at the time also said that it's 4 million. Make a private statement. So, how do you plan to achieve 4 million? I thought it would be over in 6 months, buddy. So what is 4 million? So I would seriously question my entire life. I mean, I can't sit here anymore, man . I can't do that. I also stopped wearing a Rolex. Now even people from Poland have sent me thugs, a whole gang of thugs. What ? And that was always so crazy for us . So, do you know why you call yourself Emperor and, in the third person, best man? Kaiser is simply the best man. But now comes the crazy part. I then went there by train, or rather by public transport, and was picked up by Ferrari. Fati, first of all, thank you so much for coming over and taking off your shoes right away. This shows that you have a lot of respect for our podcast in its entire format. I really appreciate that very much. Absolutely. I feel right at home, just like I'm at home. Absolutely [ahem] awesome. That's just how it is, it's the most comfortable seat and I would even say I could sit here on the sofa chair, which is definitely an armchair . Exactly. I couldn't sit in the chair any other way, but it 's very, very comfortable, and thank you for saying, "Hey, take your shoes off if you feel like it." Make yourself feel at home. You even said that if you want, you can put the shoes on it. I mean, no, no, we're not doing that. [laughter] But I think that sets a good foundation for our conversation today, because it shouldn't be so stuffy and entrepreneurial, and I think you represent that as an entrepreneur with all the quirks and idiosyncrasies you bring to the entire profile, um, what you represent here today, and the whole story you have to tell . That's why I'm so excited that you're here. Um, what I'd like to know, after all the ups and downs you've had in your life and in your business world – and we can get into that in a moment – ​​is, would you say that you are successful today? You'd probably say it depends on the definition, right? What is your definition of success? I'd say it's quite fluid. That's changing, isn't it? So, if you're probably just starting out and are at the very beginning and have absolutely nothing , then maybe it could be something material, right ? Or it could even be something to eat, or a piece of clothing . And once you have that, it can happen relatively quickly that you say, or it will happen, it will inevitably happen, um, that you say, yeah, well, it's just a car, you know? And that's why people often say that this journey to these things, the exciting part, when you finally have the Ferrari , okay, it's nice, it's chic, but in my context it's also like this: it sometimes just sits there for weeks because I'm busy working on it and enjoying what I'm doing. Um, and that's where I would say the difference lies between people who, as I always say, have a mission, and those who simply want to have it in order to show it to others . Yes, what you might often see is a kind of advantage, but because you think, "I see someone who looks good or has stylish things or takes care of themselves," you think, "Ah, they just want to show off," or something like that, right? Stories like that. Most people don't really care about that . For example, what's the reason you wear two Rolex watches? That's definitely God's plan, right? Just like with the emperor, everything is God's plan. Um, how did that happen? I've had that for a long time, I've had that for ages, I don't even know, 10 years or so, maybe even longer. Back then, I didn't really know what Rolex was. And at some point after a few years in business, or after several years in business, look, we started back in 2003 , right? eBay started online trading in 2003. Before that, there was already a flea market and all sorts of other things . So, if I, we, I have two siblings, Nes and Abdulasi, we do it as a trio. I think that was 213, 212 and that one is n't even the first one, that's actually the second or third one . One of them was borrowed without being asked. Yes. [snorting] Sous, someone took her, someone else apparently needed to bring her back. No, no, apparently he should have had a Day-Date or that is a Day-Date. Yes, exactly. It's a Day-Date. It's simply the identical watch, I don't even know when I got it last year. No, I don't know . In any case, after about two months she was gone. Yes . And then I'm lucky again. But why did I get them? I was, I remember, it somehow came to me, the idea of owning a gold Rolex. Do n't ask me why, but I also say things that come to mind, like intentions, ideas, or that intentions are God's ideas, yes, if you believe in God or whatever in the universe, whatever. But in my mind it was like this: I have nothing to do with gold, I mean, I never had any interest in gold. I never thought it was that stylish, even now. There used to be people who wore these king chains or something like that , right? These were mostly rappers and so on, who celebrated it, who thought it was cool and all that, but I never had a gold thing like that, and then I thought to myself, a) you have a Rolex, b) you're not one of those people who says today this watch, tomorrow that watch, or today this one, but I'm actually, I would say, relatively, yes, maybe minimalist, and then I was invited to an M&A event in Mallorca, my first time in Mallorca, and there was a very, very cool guy there, Matthias from Vienna, also a company. The topic was also very, very, so a super warm-hearted person, and I think that must have been the first evening . We always had workshops on topics like Finance, M&A, Exit, Ecom, and so on, and in the evenings we'd get together, look, he'd let himself get infected . Very good here. Very well influenced. That's the mode. Um, and that's where we always met in the evenings to go out for dinner . And on the first evening, I just walked into the lobby and the guys were already there, and he said he saw me and then, hey dad, you're such a cool guy, you're still missing a gold Rolex. [snorting] And I had to laugh so hard because I was like , hey, Matthias, and at that time I still had, I mean, 4,500,000 in debt out of the 4 million. Well, no, quite a bit had been worn down, but there was still some money left, and I said to him, "Hey, Matthias, I had this thought a few months ago that a gold Rolex would be nice, even though I didn't even know what I wanted, you know? I didn't know much about it back then . Now I know a little bit about the models, but otherwise, I know absolutely nothing about it. I'm not one of those people who buys something , then checks its value every day, all those apps and whatever, it's just not my thing. So, when I buy something, I wear it, and that's it for me." And then I said to him, "I'll quit school and then I'll get myself a gold Rolex." So that's basically how it came about. But how did that happen? The debts were paid off . So, just a quick bit of context, we'll get into your business story in a moment, but you were up to 4 million euros in debt just a few years ago. Z 217 was the limit. Or from 2017 onwards, if you want to put it that way. Yes, exactly. And how long were you in debt ? And how did that happen? Um, that was actually almost exactly 7 years , right? I think the last payment was in 2024. You were in debt until two years ago . 4 million in debt. How did you get into that? So, maybe that brings us to the topic of debt. More or less debt with hardly any value in return, you know? Basically, you can manage debt if you dribble it properly , if you juggle it. Maybe someone will think, "Well, debt isn't so bad." Yes, there are some extremely smart people, especially on social media, who say, "Yeah, debt isn't so bad." If you have something in return, for example, you buy real estate through the bank and so on, then it's all okay. Yes. Yes. Or some very, very wealthy people, it's all through the bank, right? They have several billion million in debt. There was It's just like that, it's simply debt, not positive debt, where there's some kind of significant material value. Can you really get us to accumulate 4 million in debt ? Ah, that happens relatively quickly, especially in e-commerce, right? It happens relatively quickly. So, we have this Z, it started around 2016, or rather 2016, especially in 2017, when we had almost 5,000 orders every day, and if you don't take money with every order, you mean, generate positive or negative amounts, then it happens relatively quickly. Yeah, you can calculate it, right? I mean, if you have 5,000 packages daily and you lose €4 in each package, for example , or rather, what I mean, lose it when it ends up in someone else's pocket , then that's €20,000 a day, and then you're through in 5 or 7 months, right? So, with that context, whether it then leads to... At that point, it was around 4 million. Mhm. But that was all very wildly calculated and so on. But the fact is, those 4 million were paid back. I, or rather we, then paid off those 4 million, but at that time it was still a sole proprietorship. Yes. Yes. So it was a sole proprietorship, now me. Wow, that was heavy. And then, uh, with the sole proprietorship, you then had personal bankruptcy. Uh, no, thank God that would be, well, you can see that all of that has its justification and its purpose, because even at that time, you have to say 26, no, 217, although we stopped in September with the, yes, with these sales boosts, because we realized something was seriously wrong here, we still ended up somewhere around 46 million euros in revenue. Yes. And yes , well, the good thing was that many people said, hey, why do n't you do it, you have to do it as a GmbH (limited liability company). So in 216 it became a GmbH, uh Um, we opened. We wanted to do that then, right, so at some point around the end of 2015 or 2016, we scaled it back, so we transformed the company into a GmbH (limited liability company), right? Because a lot of people said, hey, it's a sole proprietorship, you're making several million, uh, uh, euros in revenue. Not so much because of liability and all that, because I do n't care about that stuff, you know? I'm not one of those people, because that's all [ __ ] anyway. It's just [ __ ]. I do n't give any liability now. Yeah, then go to the bank, ask for money, or go somewhere, as if anyone there will give you money or anything and say, "Yeah, great, 25k is safe here now," which is n't even safe. Most people have never actually made a proper deposit, or they just make a small deposit, show the receipt to the notary, and then deduct it again, you know? And everyone knows this , all the relevant people who are active in the business, be it the bank, be it any people who have anything to do with it. Why should it be different if you go and say, "I want a million now, I've founded GMA," well, good for you, but what can you use as guarantor? I don't think that's so... I don't know, but from a standing point of view, it's something completely different. I should also mention that at that time we were extremely careful not to show up at all. There were no pictures, no Instagram, no Facebook, nothing at all. So, we didn't want to be in the foreground at all. It's probably hard to understand right now, because you're thinking: "Hey, Diger, you're just everywhere right now , more or less, or you keep popping up with some comment or something." Um, but yeah, it was like this, and um, to simply build up the company's standing and stability, we founded this GmbH (limited liability company) in 2016. But the exit to the GmbH never happened because, theoretically, we were already in personal bankruptcy. You could say we were insolvent, but since it was a sole proprietorship, we were n't legally required to do it. That's why I say, thank God we weren't a GmbH, because if we had been a GmbH , I don't know, but then probably the first step would have been the insolvency administrator coming along and saying, "You're some kind of big-name company, yeah, a little bit of truth, he doesn't have a clue anyway, he just wants to get through it for the highest possible value, but says, 'Okay, if someone gives me 500, you know, 500k or something, take it.'" That's why we were able to talk to the people we owed money to and buy some time, or whatever, and um, they kind of... Keeping them in good spirits. So, a brief explanation of the context for the listeners. Um, you and your brothers founded Outlet 46, and you are, um, Germany's largest sports outlet. Is it correct to say, "sports goods outlet"? Not sports. Yes, so we are now yes. Yes. Yes, [snorting] but we are now active in many other categories as well. Yes, well, fashion shoes, we're also opening up to hardware now, where there are toys, uh, household goods and the like . Um, but it started with T-shirts and such, then we expanded into shoes, but we also started on eBay in 2003, but now it's an independent online shop or, well, I'd say a platform called Outlet 46. Exactly. OK. You started on eBay in 2003. What was your first product? How did you earn your first euros ? That's funny. It's a, uh, Ralf Lauren Polirt. Funny, because we were recently or just a little while ago, and there are a few disagreements with the gentlemen, I just remembered . And indeed, it's my first product. Cool. So, how did you buy them? So, yeah, you somehow bought those things secondhand, or I don't know, did you buy some Ralph Lauren stock, or did you have some kind of B2B contact, or how does one get into selling Ralph Lauren T-shirts? The point is, back then nobody wanted to buy the used items, right? So, what just happened was, back then, something like that was handed in to DAK somewhere and nobody cared. Today you could probably get 40 or 50 euros for that. You can see how fashion has changed, or the understanding of vintage and so on and so forth. But it was like this: I had bought one myself on eBay, and I thought it was great because I was living in Goslar at the time. Mm. And for such an item, you would probably have had to go to at least Braunschweig, or even Hannover, to Peak and Klockenborg, and then pay something like 90 euros or whatever. I had ordered one myself, which otherwise cost around 40 or 45 euros, and I was sitting in Goslar and thought to myself, wow, you can do that too. But how did that happen back then? So, as a child, I actually ordered shirts from Polo Ralph Lauren on eBay . They were much cheaper than in a real store. Were those fakes back then, or where did they all come from ? There were definitely a lot of fakes and such among them. There used to be times when certain things – I'm not entirely sure, how should I put it, because back then I didn't really look into these things that closely – but apparently there were also times when certain things, well, I only know this from one wholesaler, I do n't know what period it was, I do n't know if it was the 2003 period, but certain brands from the States could be imported and weren't considered fake. Today it's like this, but I've known this for a while now: even if it's original, for example Conver shoes or Nike shoes from the States, you import them here to Europe, even though they are original, and this happens without permission from Nigen's money as a counterfeit. Mhm. Because, from this perspective, the European market , well, they just don't want that. They want European staff and then American staff. There was a time when that was open, because I only know of one supplier, back then a supplier, who said, hey, I made a fortune with these re-imports from the States. Um, whether back then, around 2003, they were fakes, or whether they were legal if these products were produced in real factories by Polar Ralph Lauren or their partners. Yes, it would still be fake. Yeah, right? So, not strictly legally speaking, but were these products officially produced in their factories here? Yes . Oh, I see, according to our supplier. Yes . OK. OK. That means you've found a supplier. How did you get here? That was, that was, um, I had ordered it, right? And I got it, it was cool. And then I ended up on some kind of large wholesale platform like restposten.de or something, and ordered socks there because I didn't have that much cash. I don't know if I even made a few hundred euros or so from delivering newspapers at flea markets . I always deposited it into my savings bank account, you know? Everything was always so cramped, always having all the money hoarded, and the socks were such bad quality, really. I thought, wow, that's possible, so you can't sell it , right? They were just men's socks, black men's socks, I think a 30- pack or something, but they were as thin as these, you know those women's nylon socks . I thought to myself, that's just not possible. And then I thought, or rather, the idea came to me, I'll just ask the guy where I bought the polo shirt if he'll give me 10, 20 or whatever wholesale quantities at a discount . Yes, that's how it started, and he agreed to it. That means you bought something from someone else on eBay and then resold it on eBay yourself . Exactly . Cool. And then, what happened next? So, what were the next products you bought? How did this business then develop? Um, well, it was like this: we actually did that for quite a while . At one point we had a supplier who had shoes and he said, hey, why do you make textiles and shoes so much easier? And so, based solely on the photography aspect, he is absolutely right, because at that time photographing textiles was a real pain. Yeah, you also have those digital cameras and Canon stuff, and then you just lie them on the floor and stuff. Actually, these wind-related things are sometimes photographed like this again, so you can see that everything just keeps repeating itself, right? Everything is becoming a little more stylish, a little bit of this or that, but basically everything is repeating itself. Um, anyway, he was some kind of wholesaler, but he was also an eBay seller himself. Um, Cristiano, the good man, he's still around today and he was an eBay seller himself and basically had Timberland shoes. Okay, these aren't from [brand name], they're from Spury. He had these Timberland boat shoes, and I didn't know what they were at the time . So, I didn't know them at all . Later on, I saw that certain people were wearing them, and I just saw that he wanted, I mean, always around 35, 36, 37 euros, and I saw that on eBay they were for 70, 80, no, like 69, 99, 79, I thought, okay, that works. And he kind of introduced us to this shoe-horse concept, which was also much easier in terms of photography, cropping, and so on. Sizes and such. Especially that too, and also in such a way that no one has to wear it, you know, like model context and so on, and you just had a larger shopping cart, right? We always had these shoes, at least size 60, 70, 80, then in winter these 6-inch boots, size 120, 130, and that's how we got into this shoe thing and that's how it developed step by step, but you have to say, that was from, it's really always been these 7 years, so everyone who hears this, look at your life and look, something definitely happens every 7 years . That was actually very, very long. So it's not like the world we have now, where you say, okay wow, we've got this product and now let's slap ads on it or slap a meta budget on it. Okay, we're now placing 10,000 orders. That was just very, very, very, very, so if you look back on it now , very C and very long. But of course, for us in that situation it was such big business, or rather, we're always busy , you know, we write texts, article descriptions, ah, someone wrote that, and you have to say, it was all manual , right? So, we wrote the invoice by hand, calculated it, calculated the VAT by hand, wrote the parcel labels by hand, and took the parcels to the post office. Yes, that was, every product was tested again, every shirt or shoe was opened again, checked to see if everything was okay, if the sole was perhaps a little dusty or went over it again . So, a completely different time, a completely different approach, but it was good and necessary, I would say, for what came next. Yes, but from 2003 to 2010 it was very, very small. I couldn't say anything about sales figures, but it certainly wasn't much. But it's great that you're describing it, because if you started in 2003, referring to this 7-year formula , then something must have happened in 2010. In 2017 you had 4 million in debt, and by 2024 you had paid off the debt and were now driving a Ferrari – what a great business. This chronology is missing a point. What happened in your life in 2010? 2010 was this turning point, where it suddenly scaled up very strongly for the then-current field. That was around 210, 21, that's when we had our first eBay. Wow. Yes, back then eBay was simply the go-to place for online shopping; if you wanted to buy something online, it was definitely eBay. Yes. Yes . There weren't many online shops like Zalanno back then, and overall, there were n't many online shops at all. eBay was simply like a monopoly, you could say. That's definitely true. And they had these eBay Wars, which were comparable to the homepage offers, perhaps like a drop from some D2C brand today, where they drop their collection and everything is sold out after 24 hours. eBay has that every day, with different categories, and you could always see how much had been sold, right? It was like, in the last hour, there were 200 units sold, and that was always so crazy for us, you know, someone was making 20, 25,000 euros in sales in one day. Um, for that time, that was pretty intense. That 's still true today, but everything is a bit distorted now because you see people who, for example, make 100k in sales every day, maybe even 150k or more, and then you think, wow, I only make 10k, that's not much at all. But when you talk to people from brick-and-mortar retail, you realize, okay, even a million a year as an e-commerce brand, yeah, someone who sold a lot of merchandise, that's not a small amount. Mm. Yes, but all this online VC distorts the whole picture, making you think we're really small. In any case, it was like this: when we saw, okay, wow, they're really pushing through a lot, a lot of revenue, and the goal was to get in there, and yeah, that's a lie. Then I managed it eventually. It was a success. Yes. Yes, it was, I mean, it was 2011. What product did you use to get into eBay Wow and what happened next? That was a Case Swit sneaker. Uh, I also wore a white, typical Berlin Mitte sneaker, like the ones you see here on K5 . So, basically, a standard white tennis sneaker. I think his name was something like PC Kurt or something. We bought 1200 pairs there. At the time, we had something similar to this room, just not as fancy as this one. It was an old community room. Mhm. They went out of there and then we went in . That was basically our office and warehouse and everything, and we didn't have the cash to buy these goods, but we had already made a few deals with the supplier and I said to him, we have the option of going on eBay. Wow. How much did you pay for sneakers like that back then? Ah, I think we paid 12 or 13 euros there . If you charge €12-13 for one product, then you've sold it for €40. No, 29.99. OK. 2999. Because that's the next point, you know, to get into this eBay world, it wasn't like, okay, I'll send something there and then yeah, cool, Tim, now it's your turn, yeah, now it's his turn, now it's his turn. but best price, mass suitability ideally under €30. Especially on eBay, if it was a fashionable, men's product. eBay was, or still is, and always has been. I think that's still the case today, even though we don't sell on eBay anymore, but it was very male- dominated. M and um yeah, we all did, so we were sure of it, we all pre-packed. It was only one model; the only sizes available were something like 40, 41, 42, and 43. We pre-packed everything, so everything was already packed, and only the outside was near the box. The sizes 42 and 43 were still listed. So it had to work, because otherwise we would have had to unpack everything again , but we were, well, sure, but somehow you knew beforehand that you would be going to the eBay Wow page. We got a slot. The supplier said, okay, I'll pay 50% upfront, the rest in 30 days. Yes . Um, then the goods arrived, we pre- packed everything and yes, then it started. The eBay auctions always started at 8 am and then things really got going, right? It was almost 100, 200 right away, around 12 o'clock we were almost sold out, there were only a few remaining sizes. So, how much revenue did you generate ? That was roughly €30,000. 30k made in 4 hours. Yes, in 10, 11 or something like that. It must have been 211. Wow, that was intense. And where did you always get the goods from ? Did you then contact several large wholesalers? Was it always American products in the fashion sector, or where did you source them and what was that like? It's such a long and drawn-out process, especially at the time, with LinkedIn and all that. I have no idea if it even existed, or I simply did n't know. So there weren't really any fairs or trade fairs going on, and we did n't go there either. We didn't go anywhere anyway. We were always like that in Goslar. We simply looked on eBay to see who had items and then contacted those people, i.e., we contacted larger sellers. OK. And then, in principle, you've created competition for them. [clears throat] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But those who came to the major countries we visited were mostly not sellers. OK? Some of them eventually started contacting sellers themselves. So, you have to, right, if you 're on this eBay site, then you're definitely in the spotlight, right? You are on the eBay homepage. Yes, and that's obviously a jackpot for wholesalers, because they say, okay, great, there's a seller who has this access, who also has the infrastructure to sell these goods, i.e., in the B2C sector. Let him write to you, because it 's a jackpot for a wholesaler if you... But why is another seller giving you... I understand if wholesalers contact you, but why is another seller giving you their wholesaler's contact information? No, he didn't give us the contact information . So, for example, the guy with the Timberland shoes, he just sold them to us, right? He has no idea, let's say he bought 2000 and then 100 pairs of us, 50 demens and so on . OK. OK. Yes. Cool. And then you got so involved in the fashion game and at some point you left eBay and built your own thing . Yes, that happened somewhat simultaneously. So first of all, we had eBay; we were really only on eBay and we really pushed the eBay format very, very hard. So, apparently, according to some eBay employee, we were also, it must have been around 215 or so , the strongest eBay partner in the Wow category with around 15 million euros in sales just with the WS. So when did you make 15 million? That must have been around 215 or so. 215 216 only with the eBay Wow format, right? Yes, according to him. I never looked at it because, I have to say, we very rarely looked at the numbers, and otherwise we just always just gave him something, so what's there? Well, a lot of time has passed, a lot has happened, and so on, but I think from the outside it's not like that at all, even with today's times, where people think, "Huh, what's he rambling on about ?" You know, it might be okay from the outside, but I don't really care, but we were just really looking ahead, increasing revenue, getting more satisfied customers, making a bigger impact, simply scaling up, and so on and so forth. It was rarely, if ever, the case that we said, "Oh wow, 100k this month, let's go out for steak," or something like that; that was n't our world at all. How much revenue did you generate through eBay in your best year? I don't know. I only know this number, and that was only because we met once or twice on eBay, I think, because they always invited the sellers to places like Drei Linden or something, and one of them said to me, "You are our strongest partner in the eBay Wall format as a fashion seller," and I was like, "Okay, easy." Is that how should I do it? Okay, but for us, our perspective was still, and still partly, that it's still too small. Yes, there's still more to come. That's the basic mode. Yes, so if you only make 15 million euros in one year on eBay in the Wow format, and that was 10 years ago. Yeah, almost 10 is already sick. Yes, and then there's also, let's say, this thing they have on the River, the Daily Sale, no, not this daily deal, but you also have a completely normal assortment where you sell off items every day. We were also active on Amazon and C, as well as on other platforms. Uh, I think it was 216, I'm not entirely sure, but I think 40 million or so in revenue. 217 was supposed to be 100% again, or something like that, actually 60 more, but we stopped when we realized, okay, we're driving at 320 towards the wall. Okay, so you grew incredibly fast , but in the end you realized that you were totally unprofitable and basically lost money on every order. It would be funny, or rather, it would be very interesting, probably also for some tax advisor or someone like that, to get all these figures and just see what exactly happened. Yes, because I think the early days must have been very, very profitable . Yes, I think when we made this switch away from the platforms and said , okay, Outlet 46 will now be the biggest online outlet... Mhm. There 's definitely a lot of money involved. Yes, what does " burnt" mean? You can't burn money. It ends up on other bags. You can't lose any money, after all. We learned that too, right? So, someone else will end up there, right? I didn't start it . If you don't have the money, then things will be different. Someone else has it, right? And the point is, it probably has to be done then, so we did it consciously for a while. So we deliberately did that, yes, because we also had to somehow move Outlet 46 forward . Up until then, we were simply a marketplace pler . So we had Outlet 46, it was there , but when did you found Outlet 46? Good question. When did the name come about? I don't know. 213 or SAS. And why Outlight 46 or...? No, Outlight 46 was earlier, it must have been with Plenty, i.e., when we had a shop system, because we then had a webshop included. Outlet 46, that must have been back in 2010 . The website must have been around for 29 years by 2010, already 7 years before you flew, with no focus at all. No Fus at all was really that bad for us, even back then, you have to say, we got involved through an account freeze and we went to what you would call an agency today, but it was just like that, they did it from home, they did a bit of e-commerce, they had some programming skills, yes, but today you would call it an agency, um, like the Kubitski family, definitely quite wild. In any case, we were with them, or rather, customers, but they had told us about these Plenty Markets. Plenty Markets, like Shopify today, did n't exist back then. It was a shop system, where you had a webshop and could use platforms like eBay for all those automated processes like invoice sending, tracking, and how payments were booked, and so on . And I even remember at the beginning, I mean, no, let's just not feel like it at all . So eBay eBay's jackpot, right? We were so incredibly busy with eBay , the world was so amazing, we were selling everything, and then no, and then we said, let's go, let's do something. This with Plenty, which was also very, very good, right? So, looking back now, because who had this shop and then you need a name, and we definitely wanted to have an outlet, because we were pushing this outlet theme forward or saw ourselves as an outlet. 46, we simply wanted to have a number on it and 46 now has several meanings. 46 is the angel number, but I only learned that recently. [laughter] No, 46, in Turkey the car license plates have numbers. Yes, and number 46 is where my grandpa came to be, more or less broke. And then we have 46, so 46 stands for Karaman Marash, or rather, we are from Elbistan, which means we were born in Gosla, right? Was the emperor actually from paradise too? But anyway, that's the thing, the number is 46, that's the pattern, and that's how 46 came about. But nowadays, 10 was always kind of my number. 46's digital root is 10, so there are many. There are 46 chromosomes, so 46 is good, the angel number [laughter]. Um, but the origin was definitely the outlet because of SEO, yeah, so that we rank well there, and then, well, that's the origin of Grandpa. Cool. And then you really stepped on the gas in recent years. What was your strongest year in terms of revenue? So, ever since we became active in the GmbH , we haven't released any sales figures at all . We have, what were they? I don't even remember anymore , I think we sold about 1.34 million items last year . What's a typical shopping cart like for you? Oh, it varies a lot. It varies quite a bit now, because our product range changes a lot, you know? It's not like we're okay with this. And she's always looking to see what you can buy at the outlet. Yes, that means you buy up an entire warehouse somewhere, or a van, or something like that. Not like that. It's not that bad, thank God. They're usually just discontinued models from brands, right? That's the context. Discontinued goods. Um, so that there's now somehow another nook here. Mhm. We used to have a domain like that, or maybe we still do. That was even one of our eBay mods, it was called that. I simply put it online, as a way of buying and selling items. I get so many emails from all sorts of shops. So, they say, e, I still have some kind of old boutique here with clothes and so on and so forth. But there 's so much of it, we ca n't possibly represent it all, nor do we want to. Currently, it's just off-season stock from brands and larger shops. And who are your usual suppliers right now? So you're talking to a brand like Timberland or Nike or something, I don't know. Do you have direct access to the brand, or who are the typical suppliers who provide you with your goods? Not right now . Not right now, but yesterday or the day before yesterday I added a few people from Nike on LinkedIn, because we always talked about remote work, since they did n't really want it either. It must be said that at the time we started, no brand wanted their brands to be represented with a discount anyway . Yes . And nobody thought the internet was for that either; they thought it was just a short-lived thing and then it would be gone again, right? Because it was also close to that 99net.com bubble, whatever. So nobody really believed in the internet. M and yesterday I saw some LinkedIn Nike sales, whatever. I thought to myself, hey, why do n't you ask her? Well, I definitely did n't ask about it for ten, if not even 15 years . We used to actively contact them, especially via LinkedIn and similar platforms. But who exactly are your biggest suppliers now? So, what kind of people do you talk to all day? Where do you get your goods from? So, there are no names. It 's quite funny, too. I called a manufacturer once. That was a few years ago. That was the owner of the brand himself, and he asked me the whole question, and I didn't give him any answers or the ones he didn't want to hear. He asked me, "Are you a Russian agent or what's going on with you?" But it 's a very discreet business , isn't it? Yes, it has improved in the context of them also seeing brands and such . So nowadays, even the brands themselves have jumped on this bandwagon in the last 10 years and even opened their own outlets, [ahem] where there's actually no outlet merchandise at all. Yeah, I'd say it's not outlet merchandise, right? Because what we're buying are really leftovers, right? For example, jeans – I do n't know which brand they are, but they 're currently in style, and in 6 months the new collection is coming out, and they still have 1000 pairs left. They need to be sold then, or ideally, they should be sold before we buy them. So, that's our business, but that's what the brands have seen. Designer jeans will never be on sale, and they won't be available at the Kaiser either . What brand are the jeans? Tell me . This one is from LE. L. Yes. Ah, easy, easy. What ? Easy. I can reach that. Can you reach me? Is LOEW? Yes. Yes . Easy. Kaiser gets everything, believe me. And then the point is, shall I tell you something ? Then she'll soon be at Outlight 46. Yes, but you can't make any money with that. Yeah, do you know how many Tims there are who would buy pants like that? Not many, right? Yes, that's why we're more of a mass market. Totally. That makes sense, you know? But you do come after all, so in Italy there are, uh, there are plenty. Cool. So, I get those offers every day , right? Balenciaga, all sorts of things, Gucci and so on, it's easy. Maybe not every piece right now. Yes, yes, I understand , but otherwise yes. Yes, easy, easy. But the point is, we've learned by now, you also have to consider whether you can make money with this. Yes. Yes . Yes . And that is the challenge. So I also have an acquaintance, I met him a few years ago, and he was also very, he had a very, very trendy boutique for men in Germany, and he said something like: "Dude, before I do something like that again, yeah, or rather..." No, his colleague actually does that; he now simply sells white socks, specifically white socks wholesale. I'd rather buy it, right? I also sell white socks wholesale. Make some cash with it and buy some LOWE instead of opening another shop and selling live, you know? And that's just how it works there. So the challenge is there for the manufacturers, it's a completely different story, but for retailers it's very, very, very challenging because these people are of course very picky. It has to fit perfectly, it has to be exactly the right jeans , it has to be exactly the right color, and you see that with all the hype brands that come out with a collection of 2,300 pieces every few years, but everyone wants just two models, or just one specific sneaker, and only that one color. And what happens to the rest? That's why, uh, it's easy, but I'd say it's more challenging to actually sell them , but sure, some you burn through like crazy, right? Because the damage to them is then greater. What's one of the best deals you've ever made? Have you ever bought some kind of container full of washing machines, or something like that, that you got really cheaply and quickly ? Maybe give me one or two examples that are really awesome, definitely a good idea, right? with which you, uh, made a really good deal. What good business did I do? Yes, your business is basically just arbitration. You buy something cheap and then sell it for more. That means your task is to make money, not in sales, but always in purchasing. Yes . Yes. Yes. Yes. You hear that sentence quite often, but you actually realize right now , yes, of course, you're definitely right. Well, no, that's the point, you're right. But what we are currently noticing massively, for example, is the profit that can be made by those who can sell. Yes, because when you're shopping, yes of course, a good price is a must, but there are plenty of stock items and such, right? You can build, you can buy, you can rent. You can also put things online, you can also build a website , that's all good. Financing, even if you don't have the cash yourself, you'll somehow find someone, right, who, so the money is there too. Yes . If I have one, if you have one, then I'll say let's do it together, I'll give you a share and so on, but the current challenge is to quickly spin these stocks, which are sometimes getting bigger and bigger. Mhm. And there I see, um, a really big one, like Bottle Lake, where you could say, okay, who can do that, man? Who can sell, um, 80,000 pieces of Harry Potter merchandise right now? Buy? Okay, easy. So, buying it cheaply is easy, you know, I'll put it in storage, but who am I actually selling it to? Yes, so I see, the margin is in the purchasing, the skill is in the selling. Yes . Yes, of course. So, if you buy cheap things, sure, then you can hardly lose. Did you buy 80,000 pieces of Harry Potter merchandise? Yes, recently, a few weeks ago. And how long will it take until it 's gone? It's quite exciting, actually. This is an area we are starting from scratch. That's the whole hardware thing. These are things like thermal mugs, mm lunch boxes, um, cups and so on. Are the glasses things that were once available at Aldi, or where do they come from? who knows? [laughter] Okay, you find someone who offers you this, you say: "Hey, great price, I'll buy it, we'll get rid of it, then you buy 80,000, you have to roll everything up , right? I think it was even 83,000 or something. The things don't cost, I do n't know, 50 cents each, quite a bit more. It's so cheap, quality, I mean, good, really good products. Okay, so they're real. Look, let me put it this way, the ones who, for example, this one mug, now, for example, this one mug, is offered on Amazon for 1999, do n't even say they're sold. Yeah, because that's wrong, because sure, you can put anything on the internet , you can even get it for €40, but another seller has it listed for 1999. Yeah. Okay. So, the interesting thing is, I then talked to someone who, for me, Harry Potter is just good, especially in the mass market, and I had a dealer friend. I talked to him and he said, yeah, you have to. I'd already bought some, you just have to be careful because Harry Potter is a strong brand, but it only really works when a new series, movie, or something else comes out. Yeah, and that's, uh, God with the emperor, that's definitely the key . Then a few days later, there was some news about a new HBO or whatever Harry Potter series. Now it's coming out , I think, at the end of the next two months. So that means the Harry Potter stock is rising, and you saw the news and did you buy it ? No, no, no. I'd already bought some . I'd bought some and he said you have to be careful with these things. Okay. Because it only really works very well when a new series or movie comes out, and then a few days later, no, no, it was like, at that second, I was on the call, I quickly checked the Harry Potter series news and then there were these announcements , right? New Harry Potter, HBO, whatever, and that means it's flowing well. We also have good margins there, and we're now active in wholesale as well. Okay. From TK Maxx or something like that. Do you have partnerships there, or how does it actually work? Well, basically [ahem] it more or less happened during this crisis. That's why you should never let a crisis go to waste . Why? We needed cash; people wanted their money . We still had some goods in stock, so we started with wholesale via email, so, you know, classic direct sales. But at some point, I thought, hey, we could just duplicate our shop, Outlet 46, and turn it into a B2B shop. Same setup, same website, just with " B2B" in front, different prices, and make it available to the market. Hmm. And we did that at some point , but then there wasn't so much focus because we had completely different issues . But I'd say even now, maybe since... It feels like two years, maybe two or three, but the last year or so, with Kaiser Fati and our B2B account and so on, you can see that. And this year we were at trade fairs for the first time , in the B2B sector, you know, bulk trade fairs and trade shows. The solution is being very well received because it's completely contrary to what's usually done in the bulk market, where everything is very secretive and discreet. The wholesalers don't really want to take on new sellers because they don't want Fati coming along and taking €500 worth of goods because they want to sell 80,000 items at once. Yeah. And they don't want to deal with small sellers. And so we said, okay, easy. What was our biggest struggle back then? Well, firstly, we had these debts, but also, back when I started, how do I get goods? It's not like that at all. People think it's super easy. You go to Adidas and they're like they're waiting for you. Nobody's waiting for you there. Yes, quite the opposite. It's actually very, very challenging to even get hold of original, saleable, and good-quality merchandise. And that's where we really come in, especially with eBay sellers, Amazon sellers, people who run boutiques, outlet stores—we have several customers here in Berlin who run late-night convenience stores—who buy merchandise from us: socks, sunglasses, bags, even those hardcore items like Harry Potter stuff, laundry baskets, and so on. It 's a very, very exciting market for us. Why the shopping cart? Well, on the one hand, because I like to push it from the perspective of my mission, because I say, yes, I want to support them, even if it's sometimes very challenging with them, because they don't really have a plan yet— not all of them, but absolutely no business plan—but they want to do something. And it's great to see how they place an order for 250, net 250, and then after a few weeks, suddenly 500, 550, and so on, where you see, okay, awesome! Wait, you know, they're getting into a kind of mode where they finally manage to do it. They start earning money and changing their habits, instead of just constantly getting their salary or allowance or whatever, like they get a paycheck and just spend it all before consuming anything, saying, "Wait a minute, I'll put some money aside, they only have a €199 minimum order, and I'll order some Harry Potter mugs or some T-shirts or something, and go shopping in Berlin Mauerpark or I don't know, somewhere else in North Rhine-Westphalia or something, in the park, on classifieds, on eBay, what not live shopping. There are so many possibilities. Yeah. Or maybe you're the kind of guy with a cool style, or maybe your football team buys you some Urban Classic T-shirts for €2.99 and sells you guys for €7 or €8, you know, if you make five. The first step is simply about... Habit. Yeah, nobody's saying you'll turn it into a Ferrari, but you see, okay, with Kaiser, after I don't know, 20 or 23 years, it did become a Ferrari. Yeah. Yeah, but it's not even about the Ferrari being the goal. Yeah, but when you realize, okay, great, I'm going to do the business now, and then step by step these things happen, contacts come, new marketplaces come, the opportunities just keep coming, right? They have to put themselves in that position, and that's where we open a lot of doors in this... well, let's call it wholesale in this context, where a very, very interesting new market is opening up. And yeah, you said earlier that the real skill lies in getting rid of the goods, yeah, so, first and foremost, mastering marketing and, of course, having a conversion-optimized shop and so on, but first and foremost, you also need traffic to get rid of 80,000 Harry Potter items, whether B2B or B2C, but let's stay... Let's keep things simple, just a little bit about your B2C shop. Um, newsletter SEO, are you involved in performance marketing? There's always a bit of a breakdown of your revenue across different traffic channels, and what you're really good at and what's currently working incredibly well for you. We don't have any paid ads. Never have. Well, yes, back then. 216 217. Yes, quite a lot. With this crash, so to speak, we got rid of everything that cost money. Yes. And we're currently... We have a daily newsletter, we're starting something in there now. So, if I subscribe to the newsletter, you write something like: "Hey, we now have Harry Potter keys for €4.99 and I also have a green football jersey for €4, and things like that." Sometimes we build campaigns, so it's always a bit like, what's currently available , where can we maybe build worlds? We... How many people are in your newsletter? Um, around 250,000. 250,000, but also over a long period of time and so on. So, whether that's... Yes, there are probably fewer... um... active ones, I'd say. Yes, so actively active, right? Because of course, many are from the old days , but what we're seeing very nicely is that old customers from the 216/218 era are starting to buy again. Yes. Yes. And that's already... In your Instagram story, you have customers who last bought something in 2018, and then suddenly, eight years later, they buy a football jersey from you or something. Yes, that's pretty crazy. I'm incredibly grateful for that, right? Because, look, we also had changes in our product range and so on. So much has changed, and not necessarily for the better, and yet people still trust us or say, okay, I'll give you another chance , right? Because you've certainly experienced that yourself in your life. Experienced. Money, yeah, I'd say easy. Well, basically it is easy, but actually, once you've been in a situation where money is involved, mmm, then you realize, okay, people change . Yeah. And in that context, unless it's something like basic necessities, it's not so easy for people to entrust you with money and just say, okay, send them 50 or 60 euros. I've read a few reviews, but I don't really know them, and that's why it's nice to see, and um, that's why newsletters are a big topic. We're starting up again, or rather, we've started using Instagram and such again. Back in 2015, you can even still see the videos on YouTube . So we were way ahead of our time , even though we never had anything to do with that whole bubble and weren't at those events and stuff. Yeah, we filmed videos about sneakers back in 2015. And stuff like that. Yeah. [snorts] Um, but we cut all that out . We did Insta Live, I think in 2016, 2017 was the first time, we went live and presented our deals , but we really cut everything out, but everything has its reason and it's good that it was like that. Now we can play it all out again a bit, which is the nice thing, if you don't stop. Yeah, we didn't stop. That's the most important thing. We didn't stop because the tax advisor at the time, he also said, well, that's 4 million. Make it private. So, how are you going to manage 4 million? Yeah. In my head it was just thicker, like, what are 4 million? We just came from nowhere somehow, like 4 million schools and now I didn't really care mentally. I thought, I thought six months, that's it for me. I briefly, a little bit of Kal [laughs] I thought to myself So, six months easy, then I'd say if I had 4 million in debt, I mean, I'd seriously question my whole life. Okay. Crazy. And I think a lot of people out there—well , I don't think it's cool that you're so positively naive and easygoing about it—having 4 million euros in debt is heavy. Yeah and no, right? So, if you, let's say, have 46 million euros in revenue, or 40, whatever, and you think, hey, that's all just easy, if you started from your childhood bedroom, then a few garages, then a community center, then a warehouse, and so on, then you think, okay, easy, I get it, but revenue is always relative, yeah, so if you have 40 million euros in revenue, but you have 50 million euros in costs, then you can't buy 4 million. Yeah. Yeah. You can't buy anything with that, anyway. It's just, let's say, about This Yatschu thing, you know. Sure, right? You don't have any profits. Yeah, well, to put it another way, you just have to manage to become profitable within a few months. That's basically the only task. You do have cash flow, at least. Not positive, but you have cash flow. We do, we do, we do. We could have done it differently, but what does "could have" mean when you're working? I'm not a fan of that at all. It was all supposed to be this way. I trust it 100%, 100% . But sure, we really pulled the emergency brake, didn't buy any goods or anything. We could have done it differently, but it was good that it was this way. Yeah. And how did you feel? Can you still remember the day you realized you had 4 million in debt? Was there a moment when your tax advisor called you, or when you suddenly looked and thought, " Hey, something's not right with this account"? Yeah. Ah, easy. We just carried on. So, yeah. Well, that's also, well [laughter] maybe they think it's impossible, but yeah. No, but I think it also comes from the fact that I'm not that into this money, well, "I don't care" is the wrong word, but I was never attached to it or anything, you know? Yeah, I understand. I have a, well, I just live for the cause. I realized that then. So even when we had 40 or 30 or whatever in revenue, [ahem] whether profitable or unprofitable, let's leave that completely aside. Mm. You can do a lot with the cash lock . Yeah, we didn't do any of that. We just got up straight every morning and went to, well, Gost, or rather, now, to where the hall is. Until evening, we made our own food there, and every day we went home to training, ate, slept, got up, and that's it, that was n't, I see it today, today on social media where they say, "Dude, now three months logged in and then in the fourth month, some kind of party, nothing." They're doing everything right, I'm not saying they're doing it wrong or anything, maybe they are. I mean, maybe they're doing it right and we're doing it wrong or whatever. Everyone has a different path, but that's why we've taken a completely different one . Yeah, sure, it seems different to a lot of people now, like, " He sits around with two Rolexes, shows up in a Ferrari, and tells me some random guy who was Lockedin." [snorting] [ laughing] People who were around back then, you'd have to ask the people who were with us, right? Our thing is, if I say "us," well, we as siblings, we're so different. This life in Berlin has changed things for me a bit, too, going out , restaurants, this and that, but I'm still mostly at home. So, I get through it, go out, work out, sometimes even swim in the sauna at home. Sure, sometimes you go out and... So, but actually, you sometimes think to yourself, what are you actually doing? Because I'd rather go home, do emails, or something. So, I'd say we've simply found our mission . What would you say came out of this rollercoaster ride of a journey ? What did you take away from it as a person ? Not so much in a business sense, but what did you learn about yourself? How have you developed? Well, I learned that money is important. I wasn't really aware of that before, because there were definitely times when I thought, wow, what's going on ? Like, yeah, especially with suppliers, because I had a lot of arguments with them, we were just constantly bickering, right? And that's maybe a good point. You're with your siblings, or with starting a family, because, well, many people say that. I also spoke to someone two days ago who said, yeah, I think it's really great that you're starting a family with a sibling. You do that to your siblings because of trust and stuff. I mean, regardless of trust, if you've been around for a few years and don't all live under one roof anymore, when do you even see your family at all? Because of this business context, we still have things to do every day or every other day, at least. Mm. Otherwise, I don't know, Christmas or any religious holiday or vacation, or then nothing at all, you know? That's why it's, it's actually, what I mean, it's a blessing, yeah, that we can do this. And earlier it even occurred to me, where I thought, wow, you know what's actually hard? If you have siblings, you know, you have siblings and one of them really goes for it , becomes a multimillionaire and the other one does n't at all. I mean, wow, thank God, man, we can't do that , there are three of us and we don't have that situation, you know, that one of them, for example, owns my A46 alone, or vice versa, me... Right? And I'm an economics engineer somewhere at Siemens, I don't know. He's doing something there [laughs] some kind of presentation. [laughs] Yeah. And I see so clearly that you can still connect , but it's like different worlds, and yet you're actually so close, and then I think, okay, awesome, thank God, through all these things that have happened, we're all together. Even a tax advisor recently went through the 2025 annual financial statements. He even told me again two days later that I am, and he accompanied the whole thing . He arrived shortly before and thought, "Dude, what's going on here?" because he didn't know us at all, because we were completely undercover. Nobody, nobody knew what was happening in Goslar. [snorts] No figures, nothing at all, no LinkedIn, zero. And they arrived there, heard about 30, I think they took over the mandate. Like 30 million, so what's going on here, right? And then suddenly the whole thing crashes. So, we've been together for about two years, and he's like, "Hey, I'm really happy for you guys, seeing what kind of salaries you have and how you can pay yourselves, and that the company is doing the way it is and everything." Yeah, because I've seen everything you guys, I'd say , haven't actually done all this time, and everything you've been allowed to develop and so on. Yeah, so after that call, he called me again and said I just wanted to get this off my chest, because, you know, he's experienced and seen all of this, you know, these guys where he must have thought, "What are they doing there? What's this?" Because he thought, "Huh, never heard of them, never seen this company." They're making millions, at least revenue, probably completely new territory for him, and then a few years later it all collapses. They're like, a sole proprietorship with 4 million in debt, and then they get... in rebound and they pay themselves hefty salaries and everything. And that's why I think it's very, very nice that you can manage it in this family context, but it was still very, very interesting to see how people react when suddenly there's no more money. Especially suppliers, I also recently had someone say that I've made so many people rich, what does that even mean ? Yes, but that's how it is, or I have the means that have been given to me, well, it 's the money, whatever, right? That's because we ordered so much, a very large amount of goods, and they made cash there, maybe not always, but for the most part. Yeah, and then when you suddenly realize and you tell them, hey guys, something's gone massively wrong here, but I'm there because I still do the shopping and always did the shopping back then and I always dealt with them and it was always so great, a drive this and that, and then you suddenly realize, okay, crazy, if you're not buying 2 million worth of goods for everyone every month anymore , then they just look for the next M and think like that and even make such pronouncements. Are you kidding me, like, "are you kidding me ?" So, I've seen your hall . You have almost 100 people walking around there, so employees. You must have stashed some money somewhere. You must own some real estate, you must own this, this. I had , I thought to myself, I have a Rolex [laughter] and that was it, you know, I did n't really have my salary or anything at that time. So, this is really, really, so sometimes I write, and recently someone said that's how I should write my book . I say, a book is certainly possible , but when you go into detail about everything that happened and how it all went down, it's quite exciting and funny. We even sent thugs, a gang of thugs, from Poland. What ? In Polish. Yes, I can do it. Why? Yes, because they wanted money. How come? Did you owe him something or what? Yes . Yes. Yes, not that one, not that one. Not him , but a supplier. Yes . Um, it was funny. Look in this hall we were in, it was a large warehouse, very nice too. And the guy had built a nice office on the first floor, like this, and then you look down at the hall, there was a glass window and you look down, and when it was that time of debt, I went down again. Downstairs we also had offices, and I meant your hall was exactly what we rented, it was n't ours, and at the beginning the hall was very, very empty because it was much too big for us, but we had our offices downstairs. Eventually we had more employees, and so we went back up to that floor. But when the debt situation arose, I went back down. I mean, I can't sit here anymore, man. I ca n't do that, and I haven't worn a Rolex in ages. I couldn't do it. I 'm up every morning at 6 a.m. or so with my bike, no matter if it's winter or not. I think it's about 11 km or so from Goster to Herst. I thought, you ca n't, you know, it's impossible, impossible , so if you have debts, well, I just can't bring myself to do it, it 's just my style, that's just how I am. And then I was downstairs, it was still upstairs, he stayed upstairs and it was around 6 or 7 pm, you know, the doorbell rings, right? So, we rarely get any visitors there, even late at night, and to remind you, there are two guys from this or that supplier , they want to talk to you or to us. Well, I thought to myself, [ahem] I knew what we wanted, right? But the exciting thing is, I'm in dialogue with everyone . It wasn't as if I played dead. How much money did you owe him? Uh, I think he got a total of 400 or 450, or maybe at that time it was 250 or 200. So he did get something, and they all always got something, whenever there was something available. I always made sure they got it weekly, or sometimes, sure, if it wasn't possible. You can't tell yourself that when you had debts, you're saying, " Yeah, it'll all work out somehow," especially when a Polish gang of thugs shows up at your door and you have six-figure debts. Then you have to realize, " Hey, I have to change something." Uh, yeah, what does "change" mean? So what does " change" mean to you? We've been saying every day that things will change, right? But no, I thought to myself, why? I don't have anything, so basically I don't have anything for myself, from my perspective I haven't done anything wrong. Yes, well, I didn't scam anyone or anything, or I didn't think of it and just said, you know, I'll just sell the goods, put the money in some account and be gone. So, emigrate to Istanbul or Dubai. I was still there then. Mm. And I thought to myself, I'm actually a very relaxed guy, but if things turn out differently, then you might have 250,000 in debt to them and then they went to the office with you. No, no, they were outside. I thought to myself, should I call the police first ? Yes No. I thought to myself, come on, screw what's going to happen. We did nothing wrong. We're going there , it's supposed to come. We stopped and went into the meeting room. Okay, what's up? Yes, we are among those who are burdened by debt. Yes I know. And yes, we want the money. I said, do you know how much, how, why the debts came about, how much the guy has already received from me in total , regardless of the school total, I think we made 2, 3 million in two years just with that . He said, "No, I didn't know that." I say yes, and I always pay him, you know, and then he starts talking about HS Angels and that, and do you know him, and do you know that? So, some people from Frankfurt, some people who were like that, some people who were like that, like, look guys , I'm not a criminal or anything, you know? I'm a businessman, so I have nothing to do with them. I don't want to do anything at all . I pay for my schools as best I can. So, what do you want from me? Do you know what we're talking about? Because the good thing is with people from the, what does that mean, from the streets, when they realize, okay, dude, this guy hasn't been shot at, is in his business, it's around 6 or 7 pm, he's still busy, yeah, and he's holding his own, what do we actually want from him? So, and he apparently pays like that, so out of the 450 he's apparently already paid off about 200, and they're dealing with other people who just talk [ __ ] all the time or run away through the window or something like that. And I would say they respected that very much and then left, and as they were leaving they even asked if we could do business. It was really funny. He basically said, "Um, it 's good business and we can do that in Poland." I mean, easy. Thankfully, we never reported it again . Um [laughter] yeah, but look at this other thing too. Shortly before paying protection money, I suddenly did a business deal with the boys. Yes, why not? Those guys just want to make money, right? You can see that, can't you? And if they can make money, why not? But the other point is also with this main supplier, so one of the main suppliers, I had 1.3 million in debt to him alone. I think it was around 1.3 on the due date, and then at some point he called me and said, " Yeah, we're still sitting around, you know, old school style." He said, "Can you hear me?" "Uh, I knew about it." After a while, he said, "You 're not a con artist." I asked him why. He said, " You haven't changed your phone number." And this guy has been in the business for, I don't know, 50 years. He 's over 70 now, started very young, and was very successful. And he said it's not the first time someone owes me money, and the first thing they do is change their phone number. I thought, wow, I would never have thought of that, you know, that I would change my mobile number, because our point was, yeah, we want to, you know, we want to straighten things out again . Yes and yes, that's why, so it was very, very good, wasn't it? But that was a point where you realized, okay, money is important. Yes, and you have to keep reminding yourself of that. Yes, because, as you can see, we are very, very strong advocates of the idea that a customer should get a great price, a great experience, it should arrive quickly, and so on. But at that time, things improved significantly, and so on. What actually happened to us? We've got that pretty far, yes, at some point salary, yes, at some point yes, and that's changed, you know, we've brought the accounting in-house, so NS did that at the beginning, now Abdulasi, the youngest, does it and he's also very, very good, yes, tax advice, so he's top-notch too, so I'd poach him straight away if he were available, and he does it, yes, he 's also very, very, yes, very, very committed to making sure we check the numbers, that we see what's going on, what's happening, and yes, now you are here, yes, now we are here. Kaiser is in Berlin. That's just the Berlin takeover, right? That's the mode. And so many opportunities in these positions, that's nice, isn't it? Our brick-and-mortar business, this B2B thing we're driving, is working very well . And what are your goals for the next few years? Have you ever cracked a new digit? No. [clears throat] Yeah, no, no, no, because I mean, you already made 40 million 11 years ago. Okay, but there were 7 years to pay back the debts first. Yes, but revenue is in the nine figures. Yes, let's see. But we're not there yet. No, no, no , no, no. But are you back to the stable level you were at a few years ago? We are stable, yes, but not at their revenue level. No. OK. What was your strongest year back then? That was the yes. Yes . So, in time for sales. 45 million back then. 46 something like that. Yes . Fits. Yes. Oit 46. Yes, that fits. Anchoring effect. Apparently, that's how it was supposed to work until then, and then yes, but no, now, due to the GmbH structure and so on, it's all a bit more settled and not exclusive. Sure, we 're still all for growth and everything, but we also make sure that some cash is left over , right? Yes, in order to finance things like that. Why do you call yourself Emperor and in the third person? That's probably what people are wondering after listening to you for an hour. I didn't have the last part, the one that would be relevant if people had listened to the podcast for an hour. It just happened that way, to be honest. So, I came across a book about the most powerful rulers in the world. It's a children's book, and I have no idea who was in it. Jingus Khe is in it , Charlemagne is in it, Caesar is in it, and Alexander the Great is also a woman. Who would that be, Elisabeth, I think? Elisabeth, I do n't even know about her, and with the gentlemen I saw, okay, wow, you're also an emperor point. That's how it happened, and then it was in my head, and the funny thing was that I then changed it on LinkedIn, but how did that happen? Your name on LinkedIn is Kaiser Fati the Holy Hassler? Yes, the holy Hassler. [laughter] That's the mode. Do you know how that happened? Johannes Mannsbart von Chat Armin. At some point , I don't even know how long ago it was, I just know that I opened LinkedIn in the morning and looked around, and he changed his account, meaning his name and his picture of me, so he took my picture and his name. I knew nothing about that. Many people thought it was some kind of prearranged thing, a marketing gimmick, whatever. I'm just so incredibly awesome . For me, it was just something, and she wrote something so quietly, something like that, and for me it was so crazy, you can just change your name like that. I was n't aware of that at all. I briefly assumed a soap identity, but then came the realization that this had to happen with the emperor. Then I thought, okay, wow, I'm going to take Kaiser right now. Then I think it was something like Kaiser der Hassler at first, and then I was in the Sohaus and then a guy came up and he had some new podcast on, I think it was even the Mighty Podcast with Floris, and he said, "Wow, I did n't know about the 4 million and all that debt," and I was like, "How did you get out of that?" We chatted a bit, like, "How are you?" and then he said, "You're a saint." And then this holy Hassler came along, so I'm sitting, look, people just think I'm sitting there thinking to myself about something, [snorting] right? So, what might trigger people, or what are these things? I just take everything that comes along and process it. But you don't care what others think or say about you. No, I know, I would say no. Has it always been like this in your life? [snorting] That's a good question, but basically I've always been like that, even in Gosler and such. So I never really noticed it, because it was never in public. Now it's more public, of course, so the reaction is a bit different, right? Or, uh, uh, uh, increase the frequency of the echo. But it was already like that back then. But not within that framework. So I guess it kind of happened step by step, it's probably like anything else, like a muscle developing, right? This then takes on an increasingly extreme form. What about your brothers, did they also get a cool car? Are they also on a similar wavelength to you in terms of mindset, or are they completely different guys? I think the best way to tell it is for them to tell it themselves. I'll tell you again, she should just start already. We are different, but otherwise we are also extremely busy with Hasseln (a German idiom for being difficult or unproductive). Um, cars, yes, they do have some nice cars. The G-Class and the other one, this M5i, whatever, I have no idea. This electric M60, no clue. I don't know myself . Something like that, do you know anything about it ? An electric M, like an M5 but as an electric car. I think it says M60 on the back . I'm not that deeply involved in the subject. Um, yeah, there's also a C63 AMG with that old biturbo engine, that awesome engine. No, that's actually quite nice. That's good, thank God, but they're just typical Hasslers, aren't they? So they are always hard at work and they are really keen. I remember when we first met in person, you came up to me and said, "Wow, I drove a Ferrari this week, I'm thinking about getting one, and I saw it on the road and thought it was cool, so I asked if I could drive it. I think I'm going to get one now, and you did n't even know what model it was." I find that you, you, I admire that extremely about you, and I also believe that it's not much of a show, and you go through the day with such an extreme ease and serenity and with such a flow, the way you let life carry you, really like that, and I know that, I've seen that in very few people in my life, and especially in very, very few entrepreneurs, because entrepreneurs are often very dogged and cerebral about the next to-dos and the next numbers they have. uh and also have to achieve and uh above all, if someone has as much debt as you, then one often falls into these control norms. We need to know when the next appointment is. Um, we need to know what our sales figures are. I need to know the exact figures. And there are also some questions that I ask, and I fully believe that. It's something, I have no idea, I didn't even look at it and so, um, that's just your nature and I find that so exciting, and that was already evident to me back then with that Ferrari story , where I thought, it's crazy how easily you start the day, just flowing through life. Yes, thank God. So I have to say, it's actually true, but I usually only find out about it through people who tell me, for example, at the gym, at the sports club, I often heard people say things like, "You're already through," or I mean, "What do you mean by ' through'?" He means you're not working anymore, right? I mean, actually I don't do anything differently. So what? No, I don't call it work, my mission, but yeah, sure, I'm Daily Gym Sauna. Yes, but otherwise I'm usually always on a mission. Okay, wow, so you're doing , ah, I only ever see you here because he only ever sees me in the, right? So, when I 'm at the gym or something, and B is also seemingly relaxed or something. Mhm. But this Ferrari story, yeah, true, that's how it is with most of them, Ferrari is kind of like Schumacher and I was even more of a team fan of Formula 1 earlier on, like Team Hacke and here, cool, like Mercedes. Yes, not Ferrari Reikönen at all. Yes, exactly. Exactly. True. Hedges. I wasn't Ferrari at all. Ferrari was real, that was before I was always training outside, not at all. Gym wasn't for me at all. This membership has allowed me to join the gym. Otherwise, I was always outside in Kisenic Park and jogging through Berlin . Every day 10 km and then Kistenic Park and the one arm, that's how it was, that must be sometime during the transition between spring and summer, it was still cold like that. We told me about it in May last year. That means it was, I do n't know, March, April or something like that last year. Yes, but it was the year before. So, I told you about that, but the year before that was when this experience happened. Ah, that was so long ago. Yes, I think I saw him about a week before or so, back when I still had debts. OK. There were about 400 or 1000 people there. I was out jogging and all I saw was the car parked there. Wow, that's crazy, I have to tell you. Does it seem crazy to me when I tell you, especially you, but wait, I'm jogging and I just see this Ferrari, I mean, the car is parked sideways on August Street and I just see this Ferrari look, I think to myself, wow, a Ferrari, but it doesn't look anything like the Ferraris you know, right? I know all of these by now , but I can't do them. These 488s and such are all cool, but they're just not my style, or at least not right now . It was so beautiful, so elegant. It was kind of like one of those AMG Mercedes things, those two-seaters, kind of like a 911, but still like a Ferrari, and I stood in front of it like a little kid. I also took a picture like that, still something, there was no emergency back then, I think, the still something still emergency developed later anyway, I thought, buddy, you've been at it for 20 years , you've never gotten a car you wanted. I used to have cars, but never the kind where I said, " That's mine," not in the sense of "mine too," but it's the style I'm talking about. Exactly, exactly, exactly , exactly, that's just how I say, "That's a cool car, dude, close the schools and get this thing." And it was similar to the watch thing; the schools were gone, and then I thought, "What do you want with a Ferrari?" You know, why? And then it kept happening in places where many people would... There's some kind of effect, some kind of psychological thing, what's it called again, Bader-Meinhorflex or something, Bader- Meinhorfekt, that when you see something, you pay more attention to it. Yeah, if it's a Ferrari, then you pay attention. But it happened in places where you'd never expect to see a Ferrari. This Ferrari kept happening. I even met a girl in the middle of all this, in the SOS (a school trip). Really cool, really cool girl. She was also... It was a Sunday. We were sitting at a table, chatting for a few hours. She was really hardworking. And so we talked about money, business, and entrepreneurship, and then I said to her that I wanted to go to the gym. I mean, I'm going to the gym now, yeah, I do n't really like bringing my things with me. I'll say it's great, and I want to add something else: I want a Ferrari, but not so much for the sake of flexing, we had such a really good connection, not so much as I complained, she said that, right? I told her that. I mean, I'm not going to say her name, but I want to ask her something, and she was like, yeah, go ahead. Why do you mean that? You mean my dad also has one? I'd say, okay, cool. Which one, then? She says " Roma." Me: Okay. That's crazy, because the Ruma is, um, so controversial in the Ferrari world . Yes. Yes . Yes . Above all, it's kind of like a women's Ferrari, because it's not really elegant and not extremely loud and whatever. I thought to myself, wow, we're sitting here for 5 hours, or on Sunday in the sixth hour, let's say we'll only then have a really good chat about business and entrepreneurship, and then you know she'll say, yeah, go for it. So, and there are many others, but I don't want to tell you about them, but things like that kept happening because I was always a little bit sneaky, and then the first time I thought, okay, then I still have something else , I thought, buddy, now just get him. But now comes the crazy part. I kept postponing the pickup date . Duger, people would probably be happy to invite the whole family, whatever, right? The whole team, that's all. I was like, yeah, the car was already there at Ferrari, it was there and all that. Yes, he means you can pick it up now and so on, and then I said it and you said, no. Yes, at some point I will, let's do it on Friday, no, let's do it on Saturday , so that it's done . I went there by train, you know, best man. Kaiser is simply the best man when it comes to public relations. But the even crazier thing is the public transport bell Ferrar, it's crazy, look at that, the really crazy thing is, where was that? Welcome to Ferrari Berlin here. Okay, so you went there by tram . Uh, that was one of those trains. Yes, it's even a tram. Yes, I have not tram, but street. Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Exactly . Exactly. In any case. But the really crazy thing isn't even that, forget about the train and so on. This car, the Roma, that I saw back then, was probably about a year and a half later; it had exactly the same license plate, I still remembered the license plate number. I still remember it, you know, the one I saw on August Street, where I said, you know, where I thought, what a beautiful car that is, and where I made the decision, buddy, close the schools and get one of the cars, right? Ferrari also does it very stylishly with food, chatting, this and that, introducing the car, this and that, or do you mean to him, hey Phil, let's go. So, no, the Ferrari guy, uh, was like that, and then no, I took off and it was okay, easy. And I stand up and I turn around and there's a car dealership glass window and that car I had seen there back then, the Roma, comes around the corner and it just runs it over . So another Ferrari consultant was talking about it and he came in and I said that's why I'm here, more or less, because of this car. Awesome, and he says: "Yeah, crazy, you definitely know him , you know him for sure, I do n't want to name names because Ferrari is very discreet and all, but you definitely know him. I even know who it is now, so we know each other, but the crazy thing is, I thought, you know, you couldn't make this up, you could n't make this up. It just has to be this way, somehow. You know, that exact car, on that day, the second I get up, drives around the corner, I see the license plate and think, what the [ __ ], that's the car, the reason I 'm here right now, picking up this car. Yeah, it 's cool. [laughter] Oh man, how awesome. I love it. Is there anything else on your bucket list, anything you still want to do, anything you still want to get? Anything? The gold Rolex Ferrer is finished now. Um, is there anything else or anything I can add to your list?" Am I allowed to write? Personally, I do n't really have that much to say about it. No, I don't even do it that hard. Well, apparently I'm just very focused on Outlet 46, I have to say. And it's more like things that just happen , you know? So, I'd say if you go through life paying attention—and I do n't mean paying attention as an exercise, but just the simplest things that I notice really strongly here in Berlin , which I also mention to people when I see them. Not just random people, but when they're wearing headphones and have been on them all day, like, I don't want to sound like that, yeah, back then you didn't know that, but you're blocking yourself, I think. I 'm often at it too, but are you a producer or a consumer? That's the first question, and secondly, sometimes I tune it out because you don't notice so much anymore, you know. And if you go through life paying attention, you hear so many things in context. For example, for me, it's often like this: I'm thinking Something, you know, for example, should I do this and that in business, or suddenly I go to the gym, or I go to a café, or I go wherever, and some guy comes along and says, for example, I mean, I want to open a brick-and-mortar store. So, suddenly you're sitting in a café, and next to you at the table, someone says, "Yeah, there's a place over there I want to sell, 150 square meters," and so on. You know, these kinds of answers are just... [ahem] Is that some kind of higher energy for you? Is that belief? Is that manifesting? How do you define that for yourself? I mean, I believe in something like that, um... Kaiser gets a cramp, but tell me, no, it 's just... Oh, so what is it? Well, for me, God is... No, but then there's the question, what is God? You could probably talk about that forever. But God is also a higher energy, right? So, it's not like, " That's God." So, you're not allowed to say that it's higher energy. I mean, there are also people who say you are God yourself. Why? Well, if you say, in this... I don't even know if it's the same in all religions , but I think it's pretty much the same. That's also, I think, the main reason why they all have these kinds of conflicts, right? Adam, how was he created? From earth, and God breathed his spirit into him . Yes, I think that's the same in all religions. So, that means if God's spirit, his own spirit, belongs there, that means you are a part of God. Yes, the funny thing is, exactly, what just occurred to me, is we met an artist, a really cool woman. "Met" always sounds like I'm flirting with her, or not even in that context [laughter], because people immediately think of Tinder when they think of meeting a woman, a man . No, that's not my world at all. And that's crazy. Well, um, that was a Ferrari test drive. He came to the Sohaus with it, and I was chatting with her, and I said to her, yeah, I'm going there right now, he's coming, and so on, and because she knew about it, and she said, yeah, that was all Earth once. I was like, what do you mean? I mean, yeah, that Ferrari, everything, it was all Earth once. I thought to myself, yeah, wow, he's right. It was all Earth once, you know, even this microscopic thing and whatever. And in that concept, you can say, okay, then everything is God. Yeah, or if you turn it the other way, nothing. It depends. Yeah, I mean, it's also like this, um, if you put things into, what's it called, these high-microscope things, then there's movement everywhere. Yeah, and then everything becomes very, very different. I was recently, I was playing VR, this virtual reality gaming stuff. I was there [sniffing] and then I thought to myself, Actually, I didn't want to participate, but I thought, "Dude, you're already here , so why not join in? They'll probably just sit here and make stories or answer DMs, you know, you can always do that." And that was the first time I did it, and I thought, wow. Yeah, it was fun, and there was this one situation where I was playing a shooter game, and there were two buildings, and there was this really narrow wooden plank, and I wanted to cross it, but I stopped for a second because I thought, "Hey, I don't want to fall." I realized, okay, you're in the game, you ca n't fall, you know? But basically, it's also something I've noticed a lot here in Berlin, because I 'm out and about more often and see more different people. Cultures and everything, basically everyone's wearing their own lens, and everyone lives in their own world, you know, and everyone's probably built it themselves, consciously or unconsciously. We Everyone's afraid of falling, even though that fear is often very irrational. Yeah, look, you can see , I don't know what all you've been through, or actually, I do know one thing that's happened to you. Yeah, and they say, you mentioned ups and downs earlier, that's what they say, right, this cycle and all that, but actually, there are only absolutes. At some point, I'd say, you reach a point, even if we're constantly thrown back into this normal societal mainstream thinking, but actually, there comes a point where this up and down doesn't even exist anymore. It's just a constant pace, so you think, okay, for example, I don't know about me , but [ __ ], I'm in debt. But you keep going and at some point you realize, hey, you had to experience that for this to happen, because otherwise, the other things wouldn't have happened at all. Yeah, even though it's something tough from a societal perspective, if you turn it around and says, okay, it was meant to happen this way, I'm the chosen one who can lift this . Yeah. So yeah, I think, I think all the [ __ ] that's happened to you as a human being had to happen to get you to where you are today. Yeah, but that's not, well, that's also a point. I wouldn't call it [ __ ]. It's good. So in the moment you don't recognize that , but yeah, it's an art to recognize that in retrospect. Yeah, exactly. Like I said, it 's an art to recognize it in retrospect. Yeah. Um, so it always sounds so macabre, but I've often said to people , like, I'm grateful for that, and it's good that my father died so young, because otherwise I would n't be where I am today, and I couldn't make something good out of it and do something good with it. And that doesn't mean that I don't love him or didn't love him, that it's something where I said, like, I was happy about that. So, the The fact itself was horrific , one of the worst things that has ever happened to me. Nevertheless, it contains a great deal of good, and, um, it's a brutal art. That's why I said earlier, um, how calmly you go through life, because truly the happiest and most fulfilled people—and I think that answers this question about success— are the people who manage to change their state at any time, shift their perspective, and gain new strength, and even in the bad things that everyone else would define as bad, see a gift from God. See it as a way to grow, to learn something new, or perhaps to take a different path in life that is much better and predestined for us. And, uh, I think that 's a very beautiful realization in conclusion , because I believe that people—and you definitely count among them— who master this skill are truly successful in life. Yeah, easy, easy. Yes, definitely. Condolences, but he's not dead , right? Souls can't To die. That's the mode. That's the mode. Thanks Fati, it was so much fun talking to you . I hope you do that with the book sometime, because I'm sitting here thinking, I don't even want to ask any questions. I do n't want to interrupt, because it's so much fun listening to you when you 're in the flow and you start talking. It's incredibly exciting, and a lot of things sometimes seem like you're about to make a joke, and then at the same time they have so much depth, and then you're like, what's he talking about, and then you start to... so talking to you has so many levels and is incredibly fun. Thanks for taking the time. Yes, thanks for the invitation.