How To Play To Win | Alex & Leila Answer Your Questions Live

I think a lot of entrepreneurs do not play to win. I think they play to tell themselves that they are playing and they do it because they want to give themselves an excuse and a reason to make failing acceptable. And so I'll tell you a story and then I'll give you some tactics around this. So um Chiron told me a friend of his played for Don Chula. If you don't know who Don Chula was, he was a famous football coach. And he said what was really interesting about playing for Don Chula compared to any other coach is that Don Chula and he was a legendary coach. every single play that they had in their playbook had a way of becoming a touchdown. And so that seems kind of I mean obvious when you think about it to yourself, but then when you think about all the moves that you make in business, are we making sure that every move that we have in business is one that's going to ultimately help us accomplish our goals overall? Like is this one move going to score the touchdown rather than just move the ball forward? And of course, some there's something to be said for called the consistent yardage, but there are times when you have to make big moves and when you have very limited resources, which we do as small business owners, we have to make bets that are going to high have the highest risk adjusted return. Meaning, we want to move the ball the most forward for the least effort and then do that over an extended period of time because the only difference in football compared to real business is that you don't have four downs. you have an unlimited amount of downs, but you don't have an unlimited amount of energy to do the downs with. So, it's a little bit different than that. So, I want to give you some examples of this to make this real. So, some of you guys say, "Okay, I need to hire more technicians for my HVAC business or whatever it is." And I'll have the question come up at a at a workshop. And someone says, "Hey, you know, this is the limitation of my business and I can't grow until I get more tradesmen. It's so hard to find tradesmen, blah blah blah blah." Right? When I asked the next question, she says, "What have you done so far? I usually get a lot of like empty faces and it's like, "Well, what do you mean like what have I done?" They're like, "Well, I've tried." I'm like, "Yeah, but what do you spec What have you actually done besides just continue to run the business?" And most times I get one or maybe two things. And so when I hear these types of responses, I'm like, "Are you really playing to win?" They're like, "Well, there's no one in my area who wants to do this thing." It's like, "Okay, well, have you hired head hunters? Have you gone into all the forums for tradesmen? Have you offered relocation bonuses to bring people in? Have you looked at poaching from your top competitors? Have you run ads in order to get um you know uh these people from your local area? Are you going to trade shows and conferences? Do you have an agreement with um any of the trade schools where you can give free or paid uh internships to the people? Now when I list out all those things, most of the times they haven't done most of them. But the thing is is that the people who want to win, who play to win, is they don't just have one way to win. It's like I want to be clear about the one constraint that I have, but I want to solve it 10 ways. So let me let me explain what I mean here. So how do you how do you reconcile the idea of Alex says do more, but then he also says do fewer or do less. How do we reconcile these two apparent opposites? Well, the answer is that we want to have a single thing we are focused on in terms of the constraint which means that there is a bottleneck in the business whether it's like I need to get more leads, I need to convert more of those leads via sales, I need to have more people who can do the delivery, whatever the thing is for you. But once we're clear on what the constraint is, we might have 10 ways to solve that constraint. And so we want the aggression, we want the violence, we want the unreasonable amount of action, the volume to be directed towards that one point. And so the way I think about it is imagine you have a piece of paper that you have to burn through and that's like the the thing that you're trying to break through, right? If you have the sun behind you, right? You have the sun behind you. If if I just try and heat up a piece of paper, it's not going to work, right? And so I have to take all of this energy, put it onto a magnifying glass and then focus on it this one point and then it'll burn through. And so this is in the same way of the analogy around the football is like we have to play to win, not just play to play. And a lot of people are playing so they can have excuses. They can tell their wives and their husbands and their and their and their the people who pay attention to them that hey I I'm fighting the good fight. I'm trying out there. It's just not easy. It's just like dude, no one cares. No one cares. And so at the end of the day, you're just either won or you didn't. And no one remembers how tough the referee's calls were, what the what the weather was like during the game. Um or if it was super windy or if you didn't have the right gloves or the cleats that you ca had uh or you're injured because you you have a little bit of tenonitis in your elbow. Like no one remembers. People just remember who won the game, period. And so a lot of entrepreneurs I'm saying are just not playing to win. So let me see if I got I wrote a couple notes down for us to make sure I hit all my points. And so, are you turbo bombing, which is a term that we use internally, the constraint? And so, I just gave you one example of like, okay, I need more tradesmen. It's like, okay, well, I give you seven different things that you can do to get more tradesmen. Let's say that you have a different issue, which is like, all right, um, I need to start making content or like I need more I need more leads. Okay, fine. You need more leads. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. You need more leads. Um, well, what are you doing so far? Well, there's just not that many leads out there. Okay. Well, we can go to trade shows. We can find affiliates of people who already have those customers. We can uh we can run ads. We can run ads on different platforms. We can make content. We make content different platforms. We can more content. There's so many different ways that you can get customers. If it's like, all right, well, this is the constraint of the business. Then it's like, all right, well, then are you dedicating the vast majority of your time towards that one thing? And so, I want to be clear. If you're under a million dollars a year and you're just trying to get your first million, focus on one and go super aggressive with volume. All right? So, if you're making content, make a shitload of content, right? If you're doing ads, make a shitload of ads. If you're doing outreach, do a shitload of outreach and stay specific on that channel. But if you get to the point where you're like, man, I really need I need way more volume. I'm at 10 million, right? And I can't I can't seem to get to 30. You're not going to get there. Like, imagine the level of effort that it takes to establish a sales channel going from zero to a million because you've done that if you're at 10 million. Okay. Do you think that somehow if you do that same level of effort at 10 million, you're somehow going to get to 30? No. You're going to go from 10 and then maybe we'll get to 11, which is going to be dimminimous. It's not gonna it's not going to do anything for you. And so what's interesting, what people miss out on is that the level of effort required, the sheer force, the magnitude of effort of will that you have to put towards moving the boulder up the hill as the as the boulder gets b bigger and the hill gets steeper and the air gets thinner is that you have to put even more when you're tired, even more when the ball is heavier, even more when it's steeper. And so like to go from 10 to 30 million, you're not going to be able to do the same thing. You to get the same level of effort to add a million dollars in revenue because adding a million dollar revenue is 10% growth. It's it's nothing, right? You get to 30, it's like you have to you have to change the leverage that you're operating in the business, which usually is the amount of violence that you're willing to employ. And the and the bet size that you're willing to make. And so let me make a point on this. So, if you are accustomed to a certain level of bet or risk, you have to completely demolish that in your mind in order to move to a different level. So, let me let me translate that. Let's say that you're used to spending $1,000 a day on ads, right? And that's what got you to a million bucks a year or whatever. Okay, cool. And you're like, above a thousand? I just can't spend it because my numbers go haywire. Okay. Well, then is that it? Have you just saturated paid advertising? Like, there's there's no way for you to grow your business. There's that's it. you're done. You know what? You can tell your wife, you can tell your therapist, you can tell your parents, you tried really hard. Um, and you fought the good fight. Congratulations. But the thing is is that no one remembers the weather and no one remembers whether you were hurt. They just remember whether you won or not. And so, you have to recalibrate your bet size. You can say, "Okay, well, in order for me to get to 10 million, I got to be able to spend 10,000 a day. So, how do I spend 10,000 a day on my ads?" Well, I can make way more creative than I have. I can make way better creative than I have. I can crack a different platform. And if I'm spending the majority of my time as the founder on the thing that matters most, which by the way, the constraint of the business is the point of the business where you get the highest returns. I want to say that again for the people in the bleachers here. All right? Where you the the point in the business where you get the highest returns on effort. Remember, we get rewarded disproportionately for our ability to get returns on the limited resources that we have. If we have a spot where you get the highest returns, you should put all of your attention there. The thing is is that that place is typically not the place that you like the most. It's typically not the spot you're most comfortable in because the part that you like the most about the business is probably not the limiter because you've already you work on it when when you're having fun because you're a marketer, you like doing marketer stuff. You like you're a sales guy, you like doing sales stuff. You like product, you like doing product stuff. It's unlikely that the place that you enjoy the most is the place the business needs you the most. And so in the beginning getting to a million or maybe three million, whatever it is, it's usually just like it's I don't want to say it's effortless, of course it's hard, but like you can you can kind of just like you can get away with being subpar at certain things, but at some point that weak link becomes so weak, it doesn't matter how strong your strong links are, you just can't overpower it. If it's only you selling, it's very hard to take only so you can only take so many sales calls, right? If it's if it's only one channel and you're in a local business and there there's a local area, there's only so many people who are searching uh you know, garage door uh Tuscaloosa, right, on Google PBC. You're going to have to find another way to generate leads. And you can heal you want, but the market doesn't really care because they don't know you exist. And so, you have to take a significantly larger level of violence with your effort towards accomplishing the objective. You have to play to win, not play to play. And to be clear, I want to say play to play if you want to enjoy the game. That's absolutely part of it. But I think potterbust also enjoy winning. And when you get these wins, sometimes it makes playing a lot easier. At least it does for me. And so the question that I would leave you with is this. Are you playing to win? Are you turbo bombing the constraint? Are you are you figuring out what the one thing that's limiting the business and then finding 10 ways to win? Are you finding 10 different ways to score a touchdown? Because the thing is it's like you know there's one thing for attribution which is like it's good to know what worked but I would rather just know that something worked rather than why it worked. So I'll give you a simple example here. If I say that I need to get cheaper leads, right? Um I can I can do that by changing my offer. I can do that by improving my landing page. I can do that by improving the quality of my creative. I can do that by improving uh the messaging. I could do that by improving uh the targeting on my ads. All of those things. Or I could I mean, if we're just talking leads, I'll leave it there. That's five different things that I could do off the top of my head that would decrease my cost per lead. Okay, great. If I want to be an armchair, you know, uh professor, then I can sit here in my ivory armchair, which is of course where where professors sit. I imagine their ivory arm trail and their ivory towers talking pedantically about about what what is required to grow a business. But the reality of growing a business is that a lot of times you don't know which thing worked. You just know that you worked your ass off and that you tried everything and that when you tried everything, one of them worked and then you continue and you forge on. All right. Now, when you want to become more efficient over time, you can peel one of them back, see if anything changes, and then you can start deleting. And this is the natural pruning of a business. It's like you're going to go really aggressive and then you be like, I'm pretty sure more of it's coming from here and then you can trim some of these resources deployed over here and then redeploy on the side, right? But at the end of the day, when I have these conversations with founders and entrepreneurs, it's more common that they are not trying nearly hard enough. They're not doing nearly enough volume and they're not playing to win. And so I would encourage you to play to win because if you aren't, who is? So, that is my message for the day and then we will uh open up for some for some Q's and A's. Hopefully, this audio and video isn't absolute dog [ __ ] Uh, we'll find out. Let's see here. I'm going to I'm going to flip the camera around and see if it's complete complete dog [ __ ] Let's see here. Was that dog [ __ ] Was that okay? Could you guys you guys hear that? All right. Yes. Can you guys see my face right now? I actually don't know. Can I get some thumbs if you guys can see my face? Because we might have a special guest who's going to join us. Yes. Okay, cool. Sweet. All right. Was this fun? It gave you a little change of environment, little change of scenery. Very nice, very pretty, very demure. All right. All right. Sweet. We have a special guest with us. Do you want to Does the special guest want to join here? I'll show you the special guest. >> Oh, did not do the full body. >> Don't do the full body. >> [ __ ] planet. >> Yes. Leila has a is in a has a solar system. She uh she's moved on from planets. She's now an intergalactic. >> I am the sun. >> Yeah, she's she is the sun. This is a This is a full full belly. >> Yeah. Got a little little dude in there hanging out trying to uh All right. So, everybody thank Ila because we were on our baby moon and I was like, "Hey, I got to stick with this 30 30 thing." >> Actually, I had a hair appointment that suggested it. >> Well, yeah. All right. Well, make it sound like I was being cooler about it. All right. You know, >> my hair appointment canled. >> Yeah. So, she had a hair appointment and then she was like, "Why don't you do the live?" And so, I'm doing the live. Anyways, we got >> do it anyways. >> Yeah. Yeah. What else? I I If you didn't want me to do it, I would I would have hung out with you. >> This is such an interesting setup. >> It's cool though, right? It's nice. The change changed from the Death Star. >> Why you need to hold it? What's going >> You don't have to hold it. I'm just a bit aid weirdo. >> Wait. Okay. So, like >> There we go. That's nice. Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And then let's tilt a little bit. >> Yeah. All right. We crank it. We doing it. All right. >> See the questions. >> Um they they they they rigged up this iPad that um Hold on, guys. I'm pull up the questions that because it's too fast for us to see. Live stream questions. Okay. Here we go. First one they highlighted. Julian, I see you in there. I will read it to you. Ready? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. I sell 5K consulting packages and I swear half my calls end with let me think about it. They ghost after that. Every one of those is a mortgage payment walking out the door. That is tough. Um, what do I actually say in that moment to keep the deal alive? It's interesting. I mean, the first thought I have is that the pain is not high enough in the sale. If they continue to say, "Let me think about it." It's like, what do you have to think about? >> I mean, I remember we used to Man, it's been a minute. >> It has been a minute. >> I was in sales before I met Alex. Leila was the top. So, let me let me let me gasla up for a second. >> Laya was the number one. Laya was the number one sales rep for 24hour for Orange County. >> Um, when I met her and so, you're off the camera. You got to get on the camera. There you go. >> Can't see anything. >> All right. Um, and when I met her, she told me that and I was like, "Oh my god, we can make so much money together if that's true." And it was and we made a lot of money together and here we are. Um, but back to you. They say, "Let me think about it." >> What do you say? It sounds like an objection overcome problem, but ideally you don't have objections because you've set the sale up. There's so many things in this. Like, >> so ideally, you've >> portray Man, I haven't explained sales in a while. >> Here, I'll I'll take a crack. I'll take a I'll take a crack towel cuz So, there's two elements that that feed into the sales motion. You've got qualification. You've got education. So, qualification is making sure that you're talking to the right people. Now, if you get me think about it and the people are not qualified, then it is a waste of your time. And I agree and you should let them go and not feel bad about it. If the correct avatars, as in people who have the money to spend, they have the need, they have the authority to make the purchase and now is the good time. Bant, budget, authority, need timing. If they meet BANT criteria, budget, authority, need timing for those you guys are writing it down. Um, if they meet that, then it's an education issue, which means that we probably need to add more friction prior to them having the conversation with you so that they are more likely to buy. Now what Ila alluded to um what she started with is there's not enough pain and so we have to think okay how do we motivate action so if you think about what sales is at the most micro level is that you locally increase the value of an outcome so there's many things that could happen so I think about like like think about it like um like in politics when there's a specific topic that they talk about a lot in the media people then say oh that's the most important topic but it's not like education never stopped being important or the economy ever stopped being important or the environment ever stopped being important. There's always things, but whatever one they talk about the most is the one people like, "Oh, that's the most important one." Right? And so to the same degree, our goal in the sale is to elevate the relative importance of one thing in their lives more than others. That's the goal. And so in order to get so like when Leila says pain, it means that we're trying to elevate the perceived value of something which is both carrots how much better your life will be with this thing and just as if not more importantly the sticks of how shitty your life is going to be without it. And so that means that you have to dig into the current present of like what is life currently like? What can you not do as a result of your current situation? But also looking forward if you don't fix this, what is life going to look like a year from now? So just like you can future pace because a lot of people are very familiar with like okay what 12 months from now what you know what does it look like if everything goes great but a lot of people do not future pace pain which is if you change nothing what does a year from now look like righta is just not a fan of this setup. >> No the team was saying something. >> Oh the team saying things. >> They sent in Marissa. >> Oh they're sending in Marissa that they're sending in the heavy guns. I'm like, man, >> this is what you get for trying to do trying to do a a vacay vacay video. >> A vac, you know, some of my top videos on YouTube were just like done with an iPhone on vacation. >> Yeah. All right. So, I'll give you So, that's the the theory about it. And I'll just give you the little tactics, which is that when someone says, "Uh, let me think about it." You just say, "Awesome. What's your main concern?" Like, you should never get like I need to think about it is not actually is not a reason to get off the phone. So they think that them saying I have to think about it is a reason to end the conversation. You just say awesome. What's your main concern? And I'll say me personally the question that I ask most frequently in these types of situations is what are you most afraid of? Like what are you afraid of having happen? Like what do you think is going to happen that's that you're afraid of? When you ask that question gets usually the heart of the issue. Um and then they'll tell you well I'm actually afraid you're going to run away with my money and go to Vegas and put it on black. And you're like all right well thanks for sharing that. Well how can we >> I was going to do that. That's exactly what I was going to do as a as a prince of Nigeria. All right. Uh >> I also think it's like when somebody says that it's if you are not confident in your response, like if you're just like, "Oh, okay. That sounds good." It's like you're being a nin. >> It's like you have to be like, "What do you have to think about?" I'm the person with the most amount of information. So if you have anything you need to think about, then I'm the person that has the answers to give to you. >> Yeah. It doesn't take time to make decisions. It makes takes information and I'm your source of information. So like what else you want to know? >> Yeah. >> Right. That's why I like saying what's your main concern cuz that's a triage question. What's your main concern? Great. And now we're in again. Like that that's that's a smoke screen. It's not even a real concern. >> It's like if a girl you ask girl on a date and she's like oh yeah I'm busy. And you're like are you really? It's like then you're like now you've asserted dominance. You've shown your confidence. She's like oh [ __ ] >> What was that like? >> Yeah, he did do that. But the but a girl likes that. It's like somebody wants to feel like the salesperson the person selling them something is confident and certain. And if you back away from the sale that easily, they just lose. >> Ila tried to cancel our date. So we were >> sick. >> Yeah. So we had a date planned. Um and then Leila like texted me, I think the day of. >> Yeah. She text me the day of and said, "Hey, I feel sick. I can't, you know, I can't make it." Um and so I just of course instant double dial text. Um and so I got on the phone and I was like and she was like, "Hello." And I was like, "You sound fine." I was like, "You sound fine." >> You were like, "The longer you prolong put off this date, the longer we don't we just wonder if we're wasting our time." >> Did I say that? >> Something to that. >> That sounds good. That's pretty clever. >> It was good. >> Yeah, there you go. That was pretty good. Yeah, the longer you delay this, the longer you're going to wonder whether it was a good fit or not. I was like, let's just get it over with. And I was like, if it sucks, it sucks. I was like, 15 minute tops. All right. So, that was uh I need to think about it. And so, today, by the way, for those of you who missed out, we're doing sales related stuff. >> Oh, it's sales today. >> It is salesreated. sales. My sales hat on. Jeez. >> Well, put your sales hat on. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. Um, hi Alex. Do you want to read that one? >> I work in B2B SAS, but I just overheard a wild sales conversation at a bar. I might be in the wrong industry. This is word for word what I heard. Jim, I got 10 tons of six 6061 aluminum sitting in my warehouse. 400 per ton. Bit steep. 385. You take it all tomorrow. Includes loading. Paperwork's one page. Done. Cash on delivery. Yep. Been doing business this way for 30 years. Spits and palm handshake. Can you explain how different industries operate sales cultural differently and what works everywhere? I mean, he just sounds experienced and like I wouldn't say that you need to B2B SAS is like pretty decent place to be doing sales. >> Okay. There's there's a lot to unpack here. >> It's a lot. >> Yeah. Um >> spits in hand. >> Yeah. That feels like a bit of somebody who spits in their hand. and I'd be like, "You're nasty, bro. What the [ __ ] Don't [ __ ] touch me." >> Yeah, that that feels a bit romanticized. Um, >> also like you have no context. Like they might have known each other. They might have done deals prior. They probably were if they were at a bar together. It's not like if you haven't done a deal with somebody, the likelihood you're at a bar with them is low. >> So, let's zoom out. What was the exchange here for anyone who just heard that? So, it starts with, "I have this much [ __ ] Um, take it for this price." The guy says, "Lower the price." And he says, "Uh, pay me when you deliver it." And he says, "Okay." So, the only variable that changed in the sales conversation was the price, right? And so, we even described or the the prospect or the seller only described, I have 661 aluminum, right? $400 a ton. So, fundamentally selling a commodity. And so if you follow any of the stuff that I talk about, it's about decommoditizing because I don't know what the margins are on this type of aluminum. No clue, right? I don't even know what 661 aluminum is. I'm sure somebody else can tell me in the comments. It's >> like a drug. >> I don't think it's a drug. But the point is is that if like you want to not sell a commodity. So this guy says, I've been doing business like this for 30 years. Um it actually implies as though this is the correct way to do business. I don't know if this business is making money. I just know that it is around and it might have declining margins and so it's not enough information to say oh this is a I could tell you right now that's not how I would sell anything um which is also why like I'm not a big fan of selling commodities because there's not enough margin it's very diff difficult to differentiate but when you sell commodities there's always demand for it but there's demand at the lowest price which is a race to the bottom and so for me I prefer to sell on the intangibles related to a commoditized industry so let me talk about this for a second if you sell something that is similar to everyone else's You have to look at the stuff around the thing to change it. Right? So if I'm the aluminum guy, I want to talk about speed of delivery. I want to talk about uh risk reversal, which the casual delivery is some element of that. Right? I want to talk about the service that's associated. I want to talk about the brand. Right? These are all things that allow us to price away from a commodity. If you don't do that, you will be stuck selling commodities forever and the margins will not fun. All right. Next punta. So I finally raised my prices by 40% after three years of undercharging. I lost 30% of my clients. Revenue went up, but I still second guess myself every day. Maybe 40% is too much. Maybe you should have done 20% instead. I'm used to doing sales based on being the cheapest. Now I'm not. What do I do now that I lost that selling point? Okay. >> Want to chip in? >> What? No. No. You're really good at these. >> What? You're the one writing a sales book, not me. I wrote a leadership book. here. >> Okay, >> I can provide entertainment value. >> Yeah, Leila's here for entertainment. Um, okay. So, >> first off, if revenue went up and you lost a percentage of your customers, we have to look at profit margins. So, I I'll tell you this real story. When I had my gyms, I was at $99 a month. This is in the beginning. And I decided I didn't want to do boot camp anymore. And I want to do summer private only. All right? It's like one on six, one on eight instead of large group. And so I gave a two-eek trial and said, "Everyone can try it out for two weeks and then we're switching to $300 a month." So a triple in price. All right. Now, what happened for me is I went from 99 to 299, which was already still too low, but whatever. And with that tripling in price, I also lost 30% of my customers. But when I lost 30% of my customers, I still doubled my revenue and my cost basis was lower because I had one-third fewer customers to deliver on. And so if your revenue went up and you have one-third fewer clients, then your margins may go up disproportionately. So let's just say for example that you had 20% margins. All right? If you went if you had 20% margins and let's say that your profit went up, right? Then by 10%. Let's just sorry, your revenue went up by 10%. Well, then we'd have a 50% increase in profit assuming costs stay the same. But cost got cut by a third. So you might have actually doubled or tripled your profit. All right? And so again, the point where you make the most money isn't the point where you get the most yeses. And so there's only one person in any market that can be the low-cost leader. And if that is you and you want to be the lowcost leader, then you need to design your entire business from day one to be the lowcost leader. Walmart makes every decision from the perspective of how do we make it as cheap as humanly possible. That is their that is their entire competitive angle. All right? If you are not that, which if you're in a service business, especially in the United States, I would encourage you if you're in a developed country and you sell service, I would encourage you to not be the the lowcost leader. If you are, then you'd be thinking exclusively through AI and offshoring everything so your cost bases can be lower and you can provide a medium level thing at the lowest possible price. But if you're just trying to be the best value, which is basically no man's land, I think you're in a recipe for a lot of pain. I think that being cheap is the easiest reason like having a discount or being cheap the cheapest is the easiest reason for someone to buy and it also attracts the worst customers. So what it sounds like now is you're having a difficult time conveying the value that your product has because you're no longer the cheapest because when you're cheapest you don't really have to explain the value because they're like well [ __ ] it it's so cheap I don't really care as much about the value because if it's not as valuable then at least I didn't spend all this money. So now you have to be able to justify that. So, you know, going along with what you said, I think it's just like you have a new skill that you have to learn because being cheap was a crutch. >> Yeah. My two favorite closes in this situation um are one is called the cheap comparison close, which you say, "Hey, um if we were the same price as the guy down the street that you just compared me to, which one would you do?" And if they're there, they'll say, "Well, you if they if so," because they're going to get excited and think you're going to price match. And so, they'll be like, "Oh, I I I would go with you guys." And you're like, "Well, why?" And then they'll be like, "Well, I mean, this seems a little better. This seems a little better. You're closer to my house, blah blah blah blah." And you're like, "Right." And that's why we're more. >> Yeah. >> And so you just let them sell you. Um, and whenever I've done this, I've always laughed about it. I'm like, "Right, that's why we're more, right?" And so if I say like if you say it like stone cold, then it's you're going to look like a dick. If you just laugh a little bit, then that rapport will kind of spin it over the edge. Um, and that's one of my favorites uh favorite ways to get over that. It's called the cheap comparison clothes. I like it a lot. When I was selling memberships at the gym, selling a membership is like the easiest thing in the world because it's like so cheap. It's like, well, if I don't use it, it is what it is. Selling personal training was so different that I actually think when you sell something super cheap, you don't really have to learn a ton of sales aptitude. So, it's kind of like now you're really learning how to sell for the first time. Oh my god. Should I do it, too? >> We're doing We're doing only uh only Alex. There we go. Only Alex and only lights. It's hot, man. >> Dude, I know. I've got a human inside of I'm gonna get I'm going to get a tan line. I got to get I got to get my my lines right. All right. Uh Teryak, next question. Hey, Alec, can you give me your number one tip for sales communication and leadership? Leadership. Hey, number one tip. What's your number one tip for leadership? >> It says for sales, communication, and >> we're starting with leadership. We're starting with leadership. >> I mean, the number one tip for leadership is the first chapter of my book, which is you have to define what good looks like. Most people are really bad at leadership because they don't take time to define what's good. And if you can't define what good looks like, you cannot give feedback to it. You can't coach to it. You can't expect people to uphold it. >> Can't model it. >> You can't model it yourself. If you do model it, people don't know what you're doing. So being able to articulate your expectations and define them in terms of the outcome you want and the way you want them to get that outcome, that's pretty much everything. And I think a lot of people think, "Oh, well that sounds more like management." Well, what's the difference between management and leadership? I'd love somebody to help me. So, >> shooting shots. >> Shooting shots. >> Um, I'll say from sales and communication. What am I getting? >> You'll be fine. >> What? >> No, no, you'll be fine. >> All right. >> I'll put sunscreen on you. >> Yeah, maybe Leila will do a a sunscreen break for me. Um, from a communication perspective, I mean this in the most sincerity. You have to describe what you want in observable terms. Like I I will probably say it'll probably on my on my [ __ ] tombstone. If if you can't describe it in terms that someone can see with their eyes or do with their hands >> or measure >> or which again if you can see it, you can measure it. It's observable, right? And so again, it's not like, "Hey man, I need you to stop being lazy." It's I need you to respond to Slack messages faster, right? And then do it. Can I measure being lazy? No. Can I measure your your response rates? Yes. Right. So like at the most basic level, can you measure it? And so whenever And so it's funny cuz um sometimes I'll be in a conversation with somebody who's like been around me long enough. They be like, can you define what that means? And they're trying to like catch me using my own stuff and I'm like, dude, I will always define what I mean because I know what I'm saying. Right? And so you will find yourself speaking with more conviction because you are speaking in concrete terms that leave no room for misinterpretation. And so by doing it that way, some people say like that sounds more robotic, but it also just means it's [ __ ] clear, right? Everyone's on the same page. Sorry, I get very I get very uh heated up about this with the heat on my back, quite literally. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting sunscreen. >> You're going to go get some. >> All right, I'll answer. It's got it coming. >> It's coming. >> All right, we're going to get Cavana Girls. >> Okay. Uh hey, Alex, hold on. I missed it. Okay. Um, I read The Motive because Leila recommended it. >> Everyone literally only knows that book because that's the one that you also talk about. I have only mentioned 10 other books that I've read, but you mentioned Oh, The Motive. So, then everyone's like, "The motive." >> I did read that. >> It was the one that you read that you you turned you cooked it down and then Thanks, Marissa. >> And then you looked at me and you said, "I'm so sorry." And I was like, "What?" You were like, "I'm so sorry all these years." >> Yeah, that's that's pretty much how it went. That one does not work. Okay, anyone with me on this? The spray on stuff does not work at all. And you got to do that stuff does not work. You got to put the You got to put the cream on. It's not work. Stop spraying me. I can taste it now. All right. Um, >> better than woods. >> Okay. Hey, Alex and Ila, what things did you sacrifice when you were in your early 20s? >> Health, vitality, >> friends. >> All right, I will give you a serious answer. >> We seriously did. We seriously did sacrifice friends. Yeah. >> Well, I mean, yeah, >> we lived in a place that we thought was like >> we didn't think it was worth. >> Yeah. >> Um, we sacrificed fun, >> drinking. >> Yeah. >> A lot of socializing. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> basically, >> I say fitting in like everyone would do. Like, we lived in Austin. It was so cool to do certain things >> like trip on LSD and [ __ ] We didn't do anything. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I think what you ask is what are the things that take time away from working and those were the things that we chose not to do in order to work. And I'll be really clear that's not what we're saying everyone should do or that's the right way to do it. Um I would say that we had disproportionate outcomes because we had a disproportionate input um for an extended period of time. >> And so I have to think if you're doing it with somebody it's much more tolerable. >> Wow, that's a lot. >> Thanks. >> It's gonna be tough. >> Okay, great. Thanks, sweetie. All right. So, short answer of that one. Jesus. Short answer of that one is what did you sacrifice? The answer was everything. >> I mean, we didn't we didn't have kids. We didn't have kids. >> We sacrificed a lot of things and and you know, the thing is is like I don't think anybody should follow in those footsteps and be like, "That's what I'm going to do, too, and I'll get the same outcome." I don't know if that's true. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> you guys didn't know you were going to get an Only Fans uh rub down as part of our um Jesus. avert your gaze. >> As if that's what I actually look like. >> Jesus. >> Um. >> Okay. >> Well, I think it's just careful. Like people always want to know what you sacrifice, but it's like we don't know if we hadn't sacrificed some of those things if we would have had the same outcome. >> Yeah. >> Which is the difficulty is like people ask me all the time like, well, you must be happy you sacrificed having kids and you waited. And I'm like, I don't know. I could have been just as successful or maybe even more if id had them earlier. How would I know? >> Yeah. I think it's super real. Okay. >> You're basically white. >> I'm basically white. Thanks. Uh, I'm a developer and I built a successful skincare product. Ah, look. Theme of the day, lotions and skincare. Um, for climbers. All right. Our brand and message is wellreceived. Great. But I feel like I can't sell it if my life depended on it. Talking to people, let alone selling, turns out to be extremely hard for me. I'm desperately looking for advice on transitioning from development to traditional sales. I love what we built, but my lack of sales acumen is slowly killing the brand. Oh, beauty, beauty, beauty, beauty. >> Can get this side at all? >> Oh, yeah. >> Otherwise, I'm going to be just roasted on one side. >> Okay. >> All right. Do you want to answer or do you want me to answer? >> Well, I'm I'm thinking about a couple things, which is like I was just talking to a girl on Dear Leila the other day. Um, look at this. We should sell pictures of your shoulder. >> That's right. Just glistening. >> Yeah. >> All it glory. All right. All right. All right. Finally. Yes. So talk >> I think well I there's a couple things that come to mind which is like first um Jesus >> what does it sucks >> I'm just gonna >> okay >> is skin care in general >> um thank you >> I was I was talking to what this is from you >> you make me look like this um in general >> I hope our employees aren't watching this >> uh they are anyways hi Guys, [ __ ] my life. Um, I just dug myself in the biggest rabbit hole. I'm using your shirt. >> Don't use my shirt. >> It's not coming off. Fine. It's just shirt. All right. >> Okay. Um, is I think people can say that they like your brand and messaging. That doesn't mean they're going to buy from you. I think those things are completely separate. one um I had a girl who she had built a skincare company based on you know holistic something for mothers and um basically nobody was buying and I was like well then they can say whatever they want maybe they're just saying that to make you feel good because the fact they're not going to buy from you >> super real >> which is true people feel bad and so they're like I love the mission just like not going to buy no >> um also like how do you know people like the brand if they don't buy people vote with their dollars yeah the measurement of if the brand resonates with people is if they feel compelled held enough to buy the thing. So that's the first thing I would think about. The second thing is that it's in a niche of a niche which is skincare >> for climbers >> for climbers. So you not saying you need to do anything differently but I will say just to inform you is like it is finding your customers is going to be the hard part in my opinion. >> No. >> Um of that. Oh, thanks. um >> is this guy >> because it's like you need to find people who are dissatisfied enough with their current skinincare um who are also climbers >> and that's like and so you could do that or I think it's like two ways that I see it which is like either you can find this like small subset of people who have this problem and are searching for the solution which feels like not a ton or you can find you can make people aware ware of the problem which means you need to become more skilled in marketing which is creating making people problem aware so people who are all climbers or outdoor sports maybe you were to expand it it's like make them aware of the problem that they don't know that they are that they have right now it's like I know a lot of people who do climbing and outdoor sports actually cuz we live in Vegas there's a lot of that I don't think they give a [ __ ] about their skin they're like yeah I get tan um so it's kind of like when we started Allen you remember that it's not just that we had to sell people on the product but sell people on a problem that the product solved. >> Yes. >> You're like, "This is too complicated for you." >> I'm going to simplify what she just said. I've been thinking about it the whole time she's been talking. >> So I So one of my one of my hacks, by the way, if you ever have to do a joint Q&A is let the other person go. >> He tells me to go first because then he gets time to think. >> Yeah. Then I can just And then I can just drop [ __ ] bombs. >> I know. It's like so [ __ ] I'm like, "You think I've had time to think five seconds about this? If whatever comes out, there's no pre-thought." >> All right. I'm disproportionately dumb compared to you on these. >> Jesus. All right. So, I'm going to guess that if you were the person who developed the product and you love the product, I care very little about the fact that it has been wellreceived. If people aren't buying, it doesn't matter. You need to sell the problem, which is Leila's point. But ideally, they already know they have the problem. And so, you're just connecting the dot from their problem to your product. What you're likely doing is doing jargon, which is you're saying the ingredients and [ __ ] that they don't know or don't care about to try and get them to buy. when the reality is that all you have to do is articulate someone's problems to them well enough and then say, "I've already solved all of that. Try it." That's it. And the thing is is this is a low stake purchase. And so if if it's made specifically for climbers and they all say that they have this problem, then if you just articulate the problem to them, which is like, "Oh, it gets in your eyes. It affects your grip. I'm just making this up." Um, this is made specifically for climbers. It's harder core. Just give it a shot. You'll probably get people who are climbers who are experiencing that problem to buy it. And so the the salesmanship piece that I'm guessing is like I would probably start with influencers because they're the easiest ones to get in contact with. There's probably tons of climber influencers. Send it to them, see if they like it, and then they can start promoting it. You go direct to direct to consumer with it, and then you can start running ads for it. And what's interesting is that sometimes, not sometimes, a lot of times products start in extreme niches and then they go outwards because if it's good enough for a climber, it's good enough for me. So let me give you an example. So, if you look at Patagonia and you look at the history of that that that company, um, they started with very hardcore base and then over time now it's like finance guys wearing their Patagonia jackets even though they're taking it from the Range Rover, you know, into their finance building. And so, people look at the most extreme version and say, "If it works for that situation, it'll probably work for my much smaller situation." So, if it helps an extreme climber not lose his grip and it doesn't get in his eyes uh when he's trying to climb >> Mount Kilimanjaro. Yeah, exactly. Um, it'll probably get out of my eyes and not affect my grip when I'm at the pool, right? And so having an extreme subniche that you start with is not a bad thing from a brand and marketing perspective. Um, but at the end of the day, no matter what, the ingredients don't matter. Those are features. Those are jargon. Those are scientific BS. What matters to the customer is what they can understand. Because everyone if everyone understood all the things that you said, then that product would not be unique, right? Like you just have to be able to articulate the problems that they are experiencing in their own words enough that they're like they feel understood. And the difference between good writing is that someone understands. Good copy is that people feel understood. All right. Bars. All right. Leila, uh, Mini Mosy episode comes out tomorrow. What are you most excited for fans to hear slash see? Well, >> uh, I'm excited for people. Probably not relevant for anyone that's watching this. Probably not a lot of girls. >> Sick. >> That was a great great answer. That was heartfelt. >> I was going to say to hear about >> You brought the heat on that one. >> Oh my god. Come on. I'm just thinking of all the guys in here like, "Fuck this shit." Uh, no. I was just thinking, um, I don't know. There's a lot of speculation, I guess, about us having a baby and so I just addressed it for like I don't know. Maybe >> what's the speculation that we're having one? >> No. I mean, no, I think like >> it's a boy. >> I think a lot of people thought we did IVF. >> Yeah. >> I think a lot of people thought >> it was an accident. Surprise. >> Yeah. I think a lot of people thought it was planned. Um I think a lot of people thought it was because of some revelation that we had. [ __ ] you. Um I think a lot of people thought that uh I think think that I care that it will be a setback for me and or >> oh like professionally >> like how are you handling this with your career all that? >> Well for the record are you happy about having it versus not having it and continuing the career path with no kid. >> Wait what? Say that again in a different way. Uh, are you happy that this is the universe timeline we live in versus the one where you would have done more business stuff? >> No, I don't think there's ever a time that I would feel like there wasn't a ton of [ __ ] going on. So, like, of course, I'm happy. >> Yeah. >> And I I I don't know. Tradeoffs. Like, >> we're both stoked. >> Yeah. We're both super excited. So, I don't I don't know if I don't know. I'm think I'm just excited to just address >> those questions. >> Yes, very heated, spicy questions. All right. Uh, back to sales. Uh, back to selling [ __ ] >> Uh, hi Alex. I'm really struggling with cold calls. I found myself in a loop where I reach out and the potential customer always replies with, "I can't talk now. I'm busy. Can I call you later?" "My business can't survive if I can't grow past this." Okay. >> Wow. You really need to write that book, huh? There's a lot of pressure to finish it. >> Oh my god. I've been working on a sales book and I don't think it's good enough for the standards that I have and I was like I have to write this whole thing again and I've and I've I've been procrastinating. >> Yeah. So, do you guys think because do you think Alex should rewrite it or just which will make him wait much longer or should he release what he has now? Oh my god, look at all this stuff on me from you. >> That's from you. It's your hands. No, >> it's not. >> It's your hands. You're cream. >> I'm ruining this $5 on Amazon. Oh, >> that's on you. Release it. >> See, everyone doesn't care. They're like, "Release that shit." You could, you know what you could do? >> You could call it a sales handbook instead of a sales book. >> No, I'm not going to do that. >> Why? >> I'm not going to do it. >> Pamphlet. >> No, it's not a pamphlet. It's [ __ ] big. >> Well, it could be a large pamphlet. >> The largest literally, it's bigger than all the books that I have right now. Pamplet. >> It's so much. I'm trying to cut cut down so that it's it's more manageable. >> All right, let's back to the sales question. Um, really struggling with cold calls. Okay. So, if people are saying that they're busy, then you're not giving them a reason to listen. And so, there's two things. One is the ask is too high and the reason is too low. All right? And so, basically, think about it as like a cost is the is how much time they think they're going to have to give. And then the the benefit is the reason that you're giving, right? And so, basically, you need to make the reason better. And this is where like big big amazing offers open doors well. And then also asking for like I don't like this sounds really tiny, but like if you're like, "Hey, do you have 15 minutes?" It's like no way. No one has 15 minutes. 15 minutes is is 15 years, right? It's it's asking for 60 seconds, 120 seconds, you know, like 2 minutes. Um, and then once you have your foot in the door, then you can do everything else. Um, what's his name? Um, uh, O's O's the mentalist. Some of you guys have heard him. He has a book on this and he talks about his pitch when he was doing street performing was 30 seconds. He would say, "Hey, 30 seconds." And he said as soon as the person said 30 seconds back to him, he knew that he had them. He's like, "Would you like to see the most amazing trick in the world? It's 30 seconds." And they'd be like, "30 seconds?" And he'd say, "Yes." So his offer, big amazing reason, cost super low. And he said, "Then he'd have them for 10 minutes, right?" And so you have to have big amazing reason, super low cost, and then you have your foot in the door and just be willing to kiss more toads. >> I thought it was Oz. >> It's O's. >> My god, >> that is the prof Yeah, correct pronunciation. Okay. Oh, this will be fun. Um, I've been helping out my family's practice and I'm in a massive disagreement with my uncle, the owner. Last month we had 13 no-shows. That's roughly 25% of our slots. It's killing our margins. Okay. I mentioned patients should make a deposit when they book, but Michael said thinks it's rude or will scare people away since we're in a small town. Will this actually scare people away or just filter out people who don't respect your time? Yeah, man. I mean, just like a hotel, you put a deposit down. Like, this is not like you need you need two sentences of scripting around this. putting a card down for these types of appointments, especially medical. Uh when the per when the when the care provers's time costs real money, it is it is very customary in order to put a card down. So, let me give you some degrees on this. So, the lowest friction um would be asking for no card, but doing an integrity tied down, which is like, hey, to be clear, it cost us money. We're going to pull somebody off the floor um who's not going to be seeing a patient in order to see you for any reason you think you can't make it. So after you've gotten the agreement on time, you basically reask again and basically tie them down. And it's like, are you a person of integrity? You're the type of person who keeps their commitments. Okay, awesome. Because it's going to cost us real money if um if you if you can't make it. All right, so that's like the lightest thing you can do. One step underneath of that is saying, "Hey, uh, awesome. Just need to put a card down. Our intention is not to charge you. We do have a $200 no-show fee if it's within 24 hours of cancellation." Obviously, we just It's just, uh, how we do business, right? It's just how we've always done it. We just have too many people who want the slots with our our doc. Um, and it's just out of respect for his time. >> Yeah, you got to do that. When I was 18, I was a personal trainer. I would tell people, I'm like, if you cancel, that's like an hour I could have made. >> Yeah. Another session. >> Another session, help somebody else gotten someone else in. So, >> yes, the degree underneath of that is that you can just charge for the consult and then tell them that you're going to apply that to anything that they choose to buy. And then the lever underneath of that, the hardest, if you want to call it the most friction, is you just charge for the consult independent of whether they work with you. And so, that's kind of four levels of friction that you can choose to implement. But no matter what, this is like if you're losing 25%, think about this, 25% of slots, which is 25% of revenue. If you were running let's say 10% margins and you could capture the other 25%, you three and a halfx profit. All right? So like there's just there's no like it's it's unbelievably unlikely this makes you less money. All right. Uh how do you handle two strong sales people on your team who can't stand each other? Oh, this is definitely a Lea question. two strong sales people on your team who can't stand each other. Um, I tend to address those things head on. So, if like two people don't like each other, I pull them into a room and I'm like, "So, we cannot like each other. That doesn't mean that we can't not work together." Part of being an adult is knowing how to work together on the same team with people that you don't necessarily want to be friends with outside of work. Um, and then usually just go through conflict resolution, which looks like, okay, so tell me what it is exactly, um, that happened. And so you basically let each person say, "This is what it felt like for me." And then the other person says, "This is what it felt like for me." Um, I usually, man, there's so much to this. >> We'll give two things. >> Okay. So, the first one is like you need to let them each say without a ton of emotion how they're feeling about the situation. Then you want to let each of them say something good about the other one. It's really cheesy. >> That's nice. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Then >> how they feel. Compliment the other person. >> Yeah. First how they feel, then compliment the other person. Then you say, "Okay, great. Um, tell me what you think could be true about what this other person said about how they feel." >> Oo, okay. >> And then So then you get them to see the other person's side. And then you say, "Okay, great. So, amazing. Now, we're going to say we're going to practice active listening, which is basically the last thing you're going to do with them is tell them to tell each other that they understand and heard each other. God, I hate this shit." And you know what I'm saying, though. >> Sounds like a therapy session. >> It is therapy. >> Yeah. >> And so, you have each of them say, "Okay, great. So, what I heard you say is XYZ. Um, here's what I'm committing to doing based on what you just said. And so you have each of them actively listen, repeat back to the other what they just said and then commit to what they're willing to do instead >> to compromise or meet the person in the middle with the situation. You ask them each to do one give >> and then I'm pretty much like if I see you in my office again, I'm going to be done [ __ ] both of you because I don't want to be a therapist. >> And there you have it from the horse's mouth. >> Yeah. >> So uh I'm going to recap that. Uh-huh. >> So, bring them in a meeting. >> Get their feels out. >> Yeah. >> Tell them to compliment each other. >> Ask them what was right about what the other person said instead ask them what they're going to do instead next time. >> Yeah. >> And then threaten that if you have to see them again, >> they're both gone. >> Kind threat. Like, and by the way, this is the only time I'll be doing this. >> Yeah. If you're in my office, then you are really messing up. >> Yeah. >> All right. Um, two good tech. Honest question. I find myself to be too ambitious where I tend to come off aggressive to people. What are your thoughts on better ways to approach conversation for selling that don't scare? Those seem like two entirely separate things. Like I'm too ambitious and I'm coming off aggressive when I sell. Um I'm guessing you're not listening very much and probably talking too much. >> Yeah, I don't know if it's ambitious or probably aggressive. >> Yeah, aggressive is probably the right term. Um, but the thing is is that people believe almost nothing about what you say and almost everything about what they say. And so the reason that selling requires you to ask so many questions is because you want them to say it, right? Like you giving someone the answer, they'll never accept it from you. And so the whole point of selling is to be like smoke. And so what I mean by that is like smoke you can't hold on to. It's like be like water. You need to be flexible. And so whenever you make statements, they can disagree with them. When you ask questions, you can't disagree with a question, right? I mean, you can reject the premise, but like let's just move on be beyond that. Um, but people will not in general disagree with a question. And so when you ask questions, you give them nothing to disagree with, which allows them to come to the conclusion. And so the amount of statements that you make in in a sale should be as small as humanly possible. And everything else should either be complimenting the person on a great uh inference they just had or conclusion they came to or decision they're making. Um, or only answering logistical questions like, "Do I have mediums? Am I available on this day?" That kind of stuff. the actual pitch itself, even the pitch part of whatever your sales script is should typically be a statement and then an analogy. And so it's like, hey, we're going to provide accountability. And so, for example, boom, I'm already away from the the features of accountability. And I'm explaining it via uh an analogy around accountability. And it's one of the big misconceptions around selling is that you have to tell the person about your stuff. You actually say almost nothing about your stuff. And that is because no one really cares. They care about themselves. They care about their problems. And they want to know that you can solve it. And so the only part that you want to describe if you are going to describe something about what you do is only in so far as it helps them believe that you'll be able to solve it. But you describe in the entirety of what you're going to do usually sounds like work that either you're doing which they're like great just handle it I don't care or they're doing which sounds like work which they don't want to do. And so the idea is we want to use analogies to bridge that gap which is much shorter to communicate and easier to comprehend which ultimately persuade at a much higher level. That was a bit of sales fire. All right. Okay. What's a fair way to split commission for a sales job? >> Leila just opted out of that one. She unsubscribed. >> I know. I read the whole thing already. >> You read that one? All right. Let's Let's see what it is. Uh, we just signed a client who pays us only when we close a sale. All right. The client sells a $2,000 course. For every sale we close, they pay us $200, which is 10% of the price. We split that with our salesperson. He gets 100 and we keep 100. Questions. Is a 50-50 split fair to the salesperson? Is a 10% a repeatable rate to charge the client? Okay, great questions. So, >> so curious what you're gonna say. >> You know what I'm gonna say? >> I hope. >> What if I say something just like that's not You're like, I don't even know. I don't even know where that came from. >> I think I know what I mean. I know what I would say. >> What are you I wonder if it's what I'm going to say. >> Go first. >> All right, fine. I'll go first. So all whenever you're talking about pricing, which is fundamentally what this is, this is a supply demand question, which is how much skill is required for me to attract a level of salesperson who can close this sale. And so the compensation has to be relative to the skill required to make the money. And so if it's a very skilled salesperson, we might have to give a higher percentage because there's certain amount of activity that requires more skills in order for them to make more money. To the same degree, supply demand in terms of how much you charge your customers. If you've got a line out the door, you can charge where the hell you want, right? If you're if you're if you're begging for business, then you might have to charge less. Now, to be clear, if you're begging for business, I still wouldn't charge absolutely zero unless you're really getting started. You need case studies. Um, but at some point, we want to continue to march our price up. And you can tell, by the way, as a as a as a total through line on this, your duration of time in an industry in a service- based business should be directly correlated with your price. Because if you've been in business a long time and you're in services, your price should consistently go up because you've gotten better and better. you've got more and more reviews, more and more case studies, more and more word order of mouth, and that spins the supply and demand in your favor, which means price can go up disproportionately. All right? So, you can almost always tell how high quality of a service provider by their price, which is why price is very strong signal for quality. Now, what did you think I was going to say? >> I was going to say for a sale like that, typically the sales agency would take 20%. >> Yeah. and that for the rep, it could make sense to split 50/50 only if um you're getting compensated in some other way besides just on the sale. Like there's some kind of continuity, there's some activation fee or something. Because if you're getting the leads >> Well, they're probably not getting the leads. Probably just doing sales. >> Just doing sales. Okay. Well, if that's all you're doing, then maybe 50/50 makes sense. But I think 10% is low >> with the rep. >> 10%'s low. Well, 10% for the for the agency is >> I mean 10% would be >> for the agency is very low. >> Yeah, 10% would be like what you pay the saleserson. >> Yeah, it's I mean I'm not a big fan of fractional sales obviously. That's why most all of our sales are in house. Um but I if I'm inhouse I want total cost of sales to be like 12%. Um or less and that includes management, software stack comp, everything. Um if we're if you have an outsource like that means that call it 12% is your cost and you've got 8% which gives you 40% margin right but you still have like the org of like how do I get those customers how do I sell them like you have the internal part so basically you're it's a thin margin business um >> yeah because the thing I'm thinking is like how much does it cost you to run those sales fractional sales agents and typically manage them >> and typically businesses like that are very offer heavy offer driven direct respons And usually that means that it's very boom bust. So there's lots of volatility in terms of the sales team. You also tend to attract mercenary sales reps. So it's not like it's not my favorite type of business. >> No. But if I were doing it, I would take more money. If >> I had to do that, I feel like I need more money for this. >> This is my life. Hold on. >> It's also like not an easy thing to sell. I think people think that it's easy because it's common. >> And what? >> Well, there's a lot of people who do like, you know. >> Oh my god. Is that better? >> Yeah, my face. Um, >> what? Oh, Jesus on me now. My bad. >> Dude, you're not good at this. >> I know. I said I'm a professional streamer. Are you kidding me? I do this for a living. Here we go. >> Uh, >> what were we talking about? >> Oh, Jesus. All right. All right. Pregnancy brain is kicked in full full steam. I'm uh I'm going to the next question. Um, when what do you do when someone's performance drops and you know something personal is going on? This is totally a me question. What do you do, Alex? >> Ignore them. >> Was it [ __ ] your feelings? Follow the plan. >> Say, can you handle that? >> I just forward hit forward to Leila. I'm like, please deal. >> That sounds like a lot. >> Please fix. Yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of you problems that I'm not equipped to handle. >> I'm dead. Um, if somebody has something personal going on and their performance has dropped, uh, I look at it as like a how much Goodwill have they deposited into the Goodwill bank? So, if somebody's been with me for three or four years and then they're going through, you know, a hard time, >> um, I give them a decent amount of slack because they've shown in the time prior to that, >> most of these situations, because someone wouldn't be on my team three or four years if this were not the case, >> they've shown that they can perform and that they're a high performer. And so, if they're going through a hard time, I will show them a lot of empathy and extend a lot of grace because I know that they are bound to come back from it. I would say that there comes a point for everybody where you might be extending too much if it's hurting the team or the business. And so the caveat on that is if their performance um is now starting to comp compound like the bad performance turns into it's getting worse turns into they're now late, they're not showing up, they're not engaged, the team's noticing, the team can't rely on them. Now the team's looking at you as the leader and thinking why is this person still in the team? That turns into another problem which is like you need to have a serious conversation with that person and explain. And I'm pretty upfront about that. I'm like listen, you know, I've actually had three people in the last 12 months that had personal situations that were very justifiable. Um, and so they were less engaged and didn't perform as well. And I had very upfront conversations. I said, "Listen, I'm going to give you the next I'm going to give you this many months to get through this and like give you grace, but I need you to come back from this." And so then when the coming back wasn't happening, it's like, hey, this isn't working for me. Um because now the team is suffering and my job is to make sure that we protect the team. And if I don't protect the team, they don't respect me as their leader. So um there's always an amount of slack you give. It's just it's like how much. The same would be said if you're like dating somebody. It's like, okay, you're going through a really hard time, but now >> cross industry. Okay. >> I'm just saying like it's like, okay, yeah, something bad happened. it was shitty for three months, but now you've been acting like an ass for six to nine months. It's like, how long are we going to put up with this behavior? Because a lot of times people go through something hard, it affects their performance, they bounce back. If there is no bounce back and they've decided to sulk and remain in their feelings and now it's affecting all these other parts of their life. Now you've seen a new trajectory has formed and you have to be willing to say, is this the right decision for the team and for the business? If this is going to continue another three months, what happens? And if it's like affecting the bottom line of the business, sometimes you have to make a really hard decision and that >> sucks. >> I'll also weigh in in saying that in those situations, I've seen Ila basically be able to site her. She can cite the accommodation she made for a longtime employee. So like if somebody's been with you for years and then you just fire them out of the blue on the first thing, it's like what kind of signals does that say to the team? Which is like not a very safe environment to work. Like it doesn't matter how well I do, like I'll never get any slack. Um, but if you say, okay, well, everybody kind of all saw that so and so was was slipping and then we did thing one and thing two and thing three and then it took four months and we still hadn't recovered. Then people were like, well, that's reasonable. Um, that you basically you made reasonable effort from a business side. You not responsible for the individual, but as on a moral side, it actually makes sense from a economics perspective, which is that um there's a cost of bringing somebody else on, right? You have to rehire them. There's a lot of internal knowledge that person probably has. had been there for a while and so it makes sense to keep that person um if you can save them, right? Obviously, we're not no one's a savior here, but like if you can help them, you know, just weather this small storm that they have going on in their life, it helps. >> Yeah. The thing is some people it's like people say when it rains it pours. >> Oh, I know. I love this. This is really good. >> I think it rains and then you can just, you know, put on a raincoat or go inside and dry off um and it rained and that occurred and like you move on. But some people it's like it rains and then they ruin their whole life. It's like they, you know, uh, lose their job and then they end up fighting with their spouse, which then leads to a divorce, which then means now they're moving out, which then means that they get out of shape because they can't go to the gym because the kids have >> drinking drugs >> and then they start drinking and and so a lot of people that get into these performance cycles will spiral in the wrong direction. So, you have to keep an eye on that and just ask yourself, are they spiraling? Are they just having a momentary setback or are they starting a new pattern? >> Yeah, that was a great that was a great synopsis. Is it a new behavior pattern or is it just a misstep? >> A blip. >> A blip. Okay. My husband bought a franchise location, but the previous owner had secretly been taking customer payments without shipping anything. Jesus. Invoicing customers, collecting money, and then voiding the invoices to hide it. My god, >> what's wrong with people? >> Now about 60 businesses are suing over this. The location's reputation is likely unsalvageable. My husband wants to sue the previous owner. What should we do first? Man, it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough. Um, believe it or not, I've actually seen this happen more than one time, unfortunately. Like, I've seen this happen a lot of times. Um, and this is why due diligence is a step in the M&A process where you acquire a business because people do shady [ __ ] and they do it especially when there's a lot of money on the line and especially when it's a onetime transaction. So, when like when is there the highest likelihood of shady [ __ ] happening? is one-time transactions with huge stakes that are irreversible, which is exactly what an M&A, what an acquisition of a business or acquisition of real estate is, right? So, there's huge incentive to do wrong if you're a short short-term player. Um, which obviously this person is. And the amount of money that you can make from short-term thinking um sometimes can be enough to set you up for life depending on how you're >> What a piece of [ __ ] >> No, agreed. >> No, I'm just saying like for like sorry sucks. It's a piece of People are shitty. >> Yeah, >> we've gotten screwed and things like that. It [ __ ] sucks. >> Yeah. And so, let me tell you the bad news first. The bad news first is that even if you do sue, cuz some people think that like, oh, if I sue them, I'll get my money back. It's like you only get the money back if that person has the money. And that amount of money divided by the other 60 people suing them is enough to make you whole, which is unlikely because either they blew it or that number divided by 60 is not what you spend. >> It's also like, okay, it's going to take two years minimum to sue them and get the money. How can you even sustain the legal fees for the two years leading up to that to pay lawyers? >> And are you going to live your life in a holding pattern? >> Yeah. Like I like I would say that how like how I would actually handle this is I would probably take my licks, learn from the lesson, and then just say like I'm going to be that much bigger and like I will shrink you into irrelevance. So like this problem though large for me now, the future version of me with the amount of action I'm going to take as a result of this very negative thing is going to make this loss feel inconsequential in the future. >> And it's the only frame that I think has really helped me. >> Just remember they have a very small penis. >> Jesus Christ. You heard it here, ladies and gentlemen. >> What I think it's like it's you have to get it out with one day and be like, "This person's a piece of [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] this motherfucker." >> Yeah. >> And then just be done with that and move on >> and move on. >> You know, >> the key is that like if you just stay angry and don't let it >> I'm read that one. >> If you let it prevent you from taking the actions that are going to make you money, like you will make more money making money than trying to get the limited amount of money out of the person there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Legal system, not a justice system. Remember that. >> It's huge. I will say that again. It is the legal system, not the justice system. You will not get justice. >> Like the amount of times that we've had to pay [ __ ] money because they've sued us for something that's a lot. >> Just because it costs less to settle. >> Just because it costs less to settle. Which by the way, if anyone's watching this right now, I won't do anymore. >> Yeah. >> I'll just head on spikes, baby. >> I have enough money. I'll sue. You can try and sue me for 5 years. You don't have money. I do. Because then it just becomes a victory of like, well, cost them more than it cost me. >> Yeah. But anyways, >> yeah, >> for anyone watching, >> I'm gonna bury you in legal fees, [ __ ] Uh, my VP is sleeping with my sales rep. We hired a new junior rep from college 5 months ago. Since then, she's generated zero qualified meetings or sales. She has no experience and clearly isn't communicating to learning as she ignores advice given to her by me and the enablement manager. Let's talk about enablement. >> I've wanted her out of the company so we can get a more experienced rep. But my VP 45 >> always defends her saying the economy is tough and we need to create a culture of cultivating not cultivating something. I saw them in a hotel bar and heard the VP bought tickets to an industry conference in Dubai where the two of them were going to do some prospecting. Is this a battle worth fighting or should I start looking for a new job? Wait, >> wait, hold on. >> So, I guess this is a sales manager. BP. So probably the guy above him >> Yeah. >> is sleeping with someone below him. >> Yeah. >> And he's not the owner. >> I mean I think that this plays out which is like their short-term long-term which is like unfortunately if this is something that is very bothersome for you which it sounds like it is the fact that you would ask that question. Just saying some people don't care. Um this is kind of a losing battle because it doesn't seem like this is the type of place where they will make changes based on the situation. Uh so it's like you have a couple options which is like one you could go to the superior of the superior or HR um and say this is what's happening and I want this person out and this person doesn't want to which means you have by consequence created an enemy of the VP. The second option is you say, "Fuck it. I'm going to let this girl who's ineffective remain on the team and I'm going to ignore it and I'm going to keep doing my best um and keep working my way up in the company here." Those are really the two options you have. The third option >> is that you leave the company. >> I have door four then. >> Okay. Okay. >> Third option is you leave the company because you say, "Okay, well, I don't like how this goes and I don't want to deal with it, so I want to go somewhere with a better culture." >> What's your fourth option? >> Door four. This is going to be a little little questionable. >> Do something creepy. >> What? >> I don't know. >> No, I think you I think you can DM the CEO or the owner, whoever's the person who owns the company who's above the VP. So, it's a bit um typically if you do that and you say, "Please do not say this came from me." Like you could try to protect your anonymity, but it's like listen, I thought you would want to know that I'm trying to fire this rep and the person above me is blocking me and I'm pretty sure they're sleeping together and I think that's the reason why, which I don't think is the best service of your business. As an owner of a business, I want to know if somebody who's one level down is blocking someone two levels down from doing their job, right? and that person's you're like I'm concerned about my livelihood because this person is now affecting my metrics and I can't I've been robbed of the authority to make the decisions on my team but I still have the responsibility of delivering these numbers. So it's an authority responsibility mismatch and I feel like obligated morally to let you know please do not you know get me in any trouble with the VP because I obviously want to maintain my standing here but I thought I owed it to you uh to let you know that this was going on. >> Well the reason I said HR is I figured the company's big enough that they have HR if they have this many levels was the first thought. The second thought is that if they do have HR, this is a sexual whatever investigation, unfortunately. So, they're going to have to investigate it and he's going to have to get it pulled in. >> Yesesh. >> Which is annoying. >> Yesesh. All right. I sell Okay, next one. I sell anonymous footpicks online. >> Is there You want to do this one? >> I have great feet. I should I should do it. That's why I always wear my socks. >> Oh my god. All right. I sell anonymous footpicks online. Is there any way to market and increase sales while staying anonymous? I grow exclusively v organic posts on X currently. >> Okay, that's all you. >> That's all me. Um, >> you got this. >> I got this. I think I would I would probably um make a lifestyle brand, like a personal brand that was my face. And then you hide the you hide the goods like fog the feed out and then the only only feed picks is is behind otherwise otherwise they they're going to have you already have the milk right. What do you need to cow for? >> I have a brand that someone can use. >> Oh god. >> Toes and chads. >> This is going to get increasingly unhinged. >> Somebody's going to make money off them. >> Oh my god. >> It feels like it would fit together with the same fetish. >> Oh my god. Could they kind of look the same? You know, >> I don't even want We're not even We're not going there. All right. I own a clothing company. Here we go. I own a clothing store, but growing a problem, but Jesus. I own a clothing store for unhinged Q&A. Here we are. Um, all right. This is so hard to get this to [ __ ] work. Hold on. There we go. Okay. I own a clothing store, but a growing problem is that people come in to get properly sized and leave and buy the same thing online. Okay. Some admit that it's the plan up front. Most try to hide it. Um, but not very convincingly. Should we start charging for sizing and fitting services and more importantly, how do we actually convert these people into instore sales instead of losing them to online after the work is done? That's tough. I mean, fundamentally, it's a commodity, right? Like, if they can buy the same thing from other places, then you're just a retailer. You're a middleman. And so they always like I think trying to get around human incentive is tough um because people always try and I mean people are always going to try and go to get the same thing for less money. >> The thing is is like I mean I do this >> like I literally don't >> you're putting small business owners out. I can't believe >> it's not because I don't want to buy it from them. It's because I don't feel like dealing with the freaking sales rep. >> Oo I have a I have a good workound. >> Okay. >> Okay. So if something fits in store, if I'm the sales rep, I would say, "Hey, have you ever bought something online and like you've bought two or three of the same size?" And it's like these don't fit necessarily the same. So believe it or not, there's also a certain level of variance that happens at the manufacturing level. So this is a little bit more about clothing stuff, but like uh like a 10 size shoe, if you've ever had a 10-siz shoe, sometimes 10 is small, sometimes 10 is large, but even 10's within the same brand might not always fit the same way. And so if you find something that actually fits the way you like it, >> then dude, just just get this one. So basically trying to decommoditize it, make it intangible, a one of one rather than one of many. That would be if I if I was the sales rep, that's how I'd probably try and position it. Um, and there's no promise that you're going to be able to get the same thing online. Who knows? But I would probably go around the idea that all mediums are not created medium. >> Well, what a lot of people do is they look online while they're at the store and see if they cuz like if at the store, for example, you don't have all the sizes. >> Yeah. >> And they're like, I can ship it to you in a week. I'm like, or I could buy it and get it in 48 hours online. So, I think also the key with the in store is now you have to have a lot more of the site. You have to be able to carry the size selection because I mean listen, I work with a million stylists and shoppers. Like >> if you don't have the size selection in store, they're just going to go online and buy it. >> Yeah, but if you're a small retailer, like they don't have a limited warehouse like storage. It's like it's very hard. >> Yeah. But a lot of people just don't buy certain sizes. Like a lot of them, I mean, I know this now. They don't carry XL. >> Why not? >> Oh my god. >> Fifth anymore. >> All right. So, if I was a sales rep, I would probably try and lean on the fact that it's one of one if it were me. But it is it is that's the angle I would take. It is still tough. >> But this person's a sales rep, not the owner of the store, right? >> No, I think it is the owner, but they're still selling. >> I own a clothing store. Also, >> it's a retailer. >> Okay. But I would say from a strategy standpoint, >> Yeah. Can we figure out a way to go online? >> Yeah, but it's not their brands. >> How do we know? >> I'm guessing it's not their brands. If it's their brand, they wouldn't care if they're buying online. >> But they're driving sales. Even if you had an online presence where you carried more of the sizes and you said, "Yeah, great." And we ship within x amount of time. >> I mean, >> well, either way, but then they'd be fine with it though. They wouldn't have a problem. >> They're they're they're losing sales in person to their online store, which is still not really losing sales. They're getting, you know, they're getting the sale either way. I think here they're losing the sale to the brand that they're holding. Yeah. >> So, I think I would take the angle that it's one of one. And then if I really wanted to get extra zesty, which why not? YOLO. It's a It's an only It's an only Leila Live. Um, >> I would try and make shopping a little bit more of experience, maybe boost them up because I think that's legal as long as you don't charge for it. And see if I can get an impulse purchase. Make it a fun experience. There you go. Okay. Um, >> we're gonna do >> One second. I got to grab something. >> Well, this I was gonna do the last question. >> Well, last question. >> Yeah, last question. >> Okay. Okay. How do you re That's a tough one. Oh, that's tough, too. Let's not do that one. >> It's too hard. >> No, it's just it was just like really emotional. I was like, I don't. >> Okay. How do you rebuild trust with someone after they let you down once? >> That's so depressing. Why would you pick that? >> Well, do you want the other one? >> Let's do the other one. No, I'm kidding. No, no, we're doing it now. >> Um, my wife passed away this year and recently came back to work from bereavement leave. We were together for 10 years. She was the reason I got up every morning and put in at least $100 a day. Now she's gone. Every time I try to doll, my heart starts to race and I feel like I'm going to have a panic attack. This has never happened to me in six years of sales. I'm not sure what to do. And at this point, I just want to quit and pursue a less stressful career. I >> think I'm going to cry. >> That's really sad. >> Show your eyes. >> Um, >> first off, I'm sorry, man. >> I'm really sorry. That's horrible. And >> I didn't read the whole question, by the way, >> when I was glancing at the beginning. >> Oh, no. It's horrible. And like I hate when loss occurs and people try to make you feel better. It's like it just it just sucks. And I don't there's no way around that. It just sucks. And it just sucks a little bit less as time goes on. And that is what you hold on to. Um I would say that I think there's a few things which is like expectations. Um, I don't think that you can expect yourself to immediately after something like that. Like putting the pressure on yourself to perform like you did right before she passed away and especially right when you get back from bereavement. I think that's unrealistic. I think it makes sense because especially a lot of men put a lot of pressure on themselves to perform to a certain degree and you probably want to prove to yourself that you're still the same person you were before, but you're not. you know, you did go through something that's really tough and and that means it's going to be hard for a minute, but it might mean that in a year or in two years, you're actually better than you were before. Um because you get to go through this, which is going through the piece of, you know, having a panic attack, which is um as somebody who used to have panic attacks all the time. >> I think you've only seen me have one, right? >> Yeah. >> Only one. Yeah. >> One time. That's because I was exciting. >> Was a pregnant panic attack. >> Um first one in a long time. Um, I think that one I would look up, um, Steven Hayes. He started his work and created acceptance commitment therapy after having a ton of panic attacks after going through a lot of stuff in his life. Um, and he has some really good stuff to say. So, I just say like read his stuff, consume his stuff, read his books. Albert Ellis is also a really great person. In general, most of the time that people have panic attacks, the reason that you get stressed when you're dialing and you feel like you're gonna have panic attacks is because you're anticipating it. The fear of it happening and it meaning something bad is what perpetuates the problem. So, something that I've said to people before when I walked in and this girl was about to have a panic attack, she was like mid having one in a bathroom and she was like I was like, "You okay?" She was like, "I think I'm going to have a panic attack." And I was like, "Let's do it." And she was like, "What?" And I was like, "Let's do it. let's have a panic attack and she like could not come and then all of a sudden it stopped. Right? And so the biggest thing is like oftentimes we get this this perpetual cycle with anxiety or sadness or frustration or anything or even anger where we fear the emotion itself. We fear the panic attack. We fear the feeling of anxiety. And then because we've attached to this meaning which is like now that my wife isn't here, I'm not going to be able to perform anymore. Now that she's gone, I'm not the same person. because she's not here, I can no longer perform the way I did before. And the reality is is that you're perpetuating that loop every time you don't make dials or back off. So right now, you backing off of this is actually going to let the fear and anxiety win. And so for that reason, I would not suggest trying to do something different because I think right now, especially after going through what you went through, if you leave the situation, you'll never prove to yourself that you are the person that can overcome it. And I think that you deserve to prove that to yourself, especially right now. And so I I would look at his stuff. He talks a lot about how to get through panic attacks. For me, the biggest thing was not being afraid of it. It was just like I remember he uh Stephen Hayes said something. He was like, "If I have one in front of all my colleagues, that's their problem, not mine. I'll be fine, but they got to deal with whatever the [ __ ] occurs in their head when they watch me have one." Um, and so, like, I had many times where I was really scared of having one. And I just continue to confront those situations time and time again. And if you're in a spot where it's really hard to change your mind or how you feel, then you have to change your actions. And I think after you go through really big loss, it's really hard to change how you feel. And it's really hard to change some of the thoughts you're having. But you can change what you do. Even if it means that you don't believe it's going to work and even if it means that you don't believe you can get through it, you can. You just have to act like it. And eventually your mind and your emotions will catch up. >> I'm going to give you three non-therapy ones >> from the mentally unhealthy of the two of us. Um so number one, I'm absolutely an advocate of distracting yourself with work. Um, I had a friend whose dad died and I called him, you know, a couple days afterwards and I said, you know, he picked up the call and I said, "Hey, do you want to not talk about your dad dying?" And he was like, "I would [ __ ] love that." And I was like, "Want to talk about money?" And he was like, "Yes." And so, and at the end of the call, he was like, "Thank you for that." And so, I think there's something to be said for like you don't need to spend all your time grieving. Like, if you like basically not feeling guilty about not grieving all the time. Um, obviously my mother recently passed, so this is something that's it was fresh for me. So it's just like number one I can't I there's nothing wrong with how I choose to quote mourn like just no judgment on how if I want to work and that's how I get through it then that's how I get through it. Um the second thing is there's a gymnastic frame which is they always like talk about getting back on the horse like a horse kicks you off pal a horse too. Um they always want to put you right back on the horse because they don't want you to be afraid of the thing or misattribute or make it mean something. And so you said that you were dialing for your wife but you could like you don't really need to stop dialing for your wife. Just because she's gone doesn't mean that the idea of dialing for her needs to go away, right? Like you can dial to make her proud. Just like I'm I hope that my mom's looking down from heaven and she sees the stuff that I'm doing now and she's [ __ ] stoked for it. Um so I don't think there's any reason and I think that she would she would want me to continue. I don't think she would want me to stop. Um I think she'd be saddened by that. And so that gives you, you know, three different frames for me. One is get back on the horse. Second is that there's nothing wrong with distraction. Um and three, you were doing it before for her before and you can do it for her now. So sorry he's going you're going through it, man. Um but I promise there there will be a sunny day on the other side. All right, with that very uh solemn end to our our live stream from the baby moon. Baby moon. I was just going to show that >> I am. >> Well, you're you're you're under the thing. You're under the tarp. >> Pull my shirt up. >> What is this? >> What the [ __ ] >> What are you trying to get me to do? I was going to show I was going to show the the little little bumps, but it's all good. Anyways, >> have an amazing day, guys.